Opinion on oil Filter cooler

[Chad in Michigan]

from the service manual:

Cooling capacity (Radiator and engine)    : 2.4 L (0.6 US gal, 0.5 Imp gal)

(Reserve tank) :  0.4 L (0.1 US gal, 0.09 Imp gal)
Radiator cap relief pressure : 107.9 kPa (1 .1 kg/cm2, 15. 64 psi)

Thermostat begins to open :  80-84°C (176-183°F)

Thermostat fully open :     95°C (203°F)

Thermostat valve lift   :     8.0 (0.315) min.             


       

[lragan]

Yo, Chad, I am not asking about the bellows mechanical thermostat.

I am asking about the temperature sensor switch that turns on the fan.

[Chad in Michigan]

oh, sorry i think i read somewhere it is 212 degrees. lemme see if i can find that somewhere

[lragan]

That would make sense.  Whatever it is, at least one of my '96 Magnas is not working properly.  Either they should both come on or neither should come on, since the temperatures track pretty well during a simultaneous warm-up.

Thanks for your help. Chad.  I don't really know where to find this data...

[Chad in Michigan]

how bout this from the service manual: (in the lights/meters/switches section)

Coolant temperature sensor resistance:   85°C (185°F)         39-49 ohms
                                                      120°C (248°F)        14-18 ohms

Fan motor switch:                               Starts to close (ON)   97-103°C (207-217°F)

                                                      Stops to open (OFF)  92-98°C (198-208°F)

[hootmon]

how bout this from the service manual: (in the lights/meters/switches section)

Coolant temperature sensor resistance:   85°C (185°F)         39-49 ohms
                                                      120°C (248°F)        14-18 ohms

Fan motor switch:                               Starts to close (ON)   97-103°C (207-217°F)

                                                      Stops to open (OFF)  92-98°C (198-208°F)

Without a coolant temp gauge, how do you know??

[lragan]

Without a coolant temp gauge, how do you know??

You don't -- but you can make some reasonable assumptions, based on the temperature of the radiator, taken by IR measurement.  Being black, it should be a reasonably efficient radiator of infrared energy, and the indicated temperature should be only a few degrees, at most, below the water temperature.

This is valuable info, Chad -- thanks for finding it for me.  From this, I am pretty sure that the problem is in the bike that runs the fan --- I think it comes on at way to low a temperature.  I will confirm with more careful measurements, but my guess is that I need to replace the sensor on this bike.  Given the 10 deg F variation in the specification, it is at least possible that both are working "within spec" -- but I can easily find out, now that I know what the switch is supposed to do.

[hootmon]

From this, I am pretty sure that the problem is in the bike that runs the fan --- I think it comes on at way to low a temperature.  I will confirm with more careful measurements, but my guess is that I need to replace the sensor on this bike.  Given the 10 deg F variation in the specification, it is at least possible that both are working "within spec" -- but I can easily find out, now that I know what the switch is supposed to do.

Don't know if it's worth it or not, but if it's easy, you might just try swapping sensors between the bikes and see if the situation switches bikes..

[Jumbobret]

Progress report:

I have a bending jig, and one of the mandrels is approximately the same diameter as the oil filter ( a tad smaller).  The mandrel consists of a steel cylinder with about a 3/4" hole in the center.  Solid steel, for the purposes of this experiment.  With a deadblow (brass) hammer and this mandrel, I was able to force the aluminum extrusion into "round" shape -- pretty close.  

Without buying an oil temperature gauge, I was limited to an infrared measurement device which the wife uses to temper chocolate.  The experiments were run with the bike in the trailer, all doors open.  I took the "temperature" at the center of the oil filter.  I was careful to hold the infrared absorption meter (calibrated as a thermometer) the same distance from the end of the filter in all cases.  The device has a laser pointer built in, so it can be repeatedly centered.  (The laser is a little misleading, since the field of view of the IR sensor is necessarily much wider than the laser dot implies, in case you use one of these devices.)

Yesterday, I measured the following, without the "cooler":

Before starting: 93.1 deg F
After 10 min idle: 135.7 deg F  --> net temperature rise 42.6 deg F

Today, I repeated the experiment with the "cooler" installed -- including a bit of thermal grease I bought at Best Buy (not recommended because of price, but I had a credit there, so what the heck?)

Before starting: 101.3 deg F
After 10 min idle: 140.6 deg F --> net temperature rise of 39.3 deg F

These results are not at all conclusive, in that the starting temperatures were different.  

The fan did not come on either day.  I wonder...

I ran the other bike in the same trailer today, and actually got a lower overall temperature rise over ten minutes, without any aluminum fins on the filter:

Before starting: 101.8 deg F
After 10 min:     139.3 deg F --> temperature rise of 38.5 degrees   However, the fan was running on this engine after 10 minutes idle.  I did not notice if the fan came on when I started the engine.

Conclusion:  When stationary, the "cooler" doesn't do much, if anything.  It doesn't appear to make matters worse, so I think I will leave it installed until winter arrives.  It may help some with air flow, I don't know.

Bottom line: (Still!!)  Don't waste your money.

By the way, does anyone know what water temperature is supposed to activate the fan?  I could not find numbers in either the Magna specific manual or the Honda shop manual.  I did check that the fuse is intact, but have not done any more measuring of voltages into the temperature switch or into the fan.  It is just too hot to fool with.  Temperature here yesterday was 112 F!  Reminds me of the summer of 1980, which I had hoped to completely forget.

If I read this corretly you did the test on the bike with it sitting still? If that is correct, how can you do a test without the bike moving or at least a fan on it to simulate air flow?

[lragan]

If I read this corretly you did the test on the bike with it sitting still? If that is correct, how can you do a test without the bike moving or at least a fan on it to simulate air flow?

There are many operating scenarios that merit attention.  In my opinion, the one most likely to result in high oil temperatures is the bike sitting in still air at idle. 

It also happens that this is the only scenario that I have equipment on hand to measure.  I don't intend to buy additional equipment, like an oil temperature gauge, to evaluate this $35 purchase.

Given that the device increases the equivalent surface area of the oil filter, one might expect better improvement at speed, but that is speculation on my part.

I am not an expert in the deterioration mechanism of lubricating oil, so I don't know how the damage it suffers at elevated temperature depends on the length of time at said temperature.  Neither do I understand the damage rate versus temperature, so the following is rather beyond speculation, and into the realm of a WAG -- that the most likely damage will accrue to running the engine parked at idle for extended periods -- at least after it has been running a while to warm up.  Sitting at the stop light, or stuck in traffic, in my WAG, is where the damage is most likely to occur.  If this is correct, then the test I detailed above is the most relevant.  If not, then the investigation is incomplete.

I will be happy to forward the device to any MOOT member who posts a plan to evaluate the effect on oil temperature at speed, including the equipment the member has to accomplish this.

It would also be beneficial if you oil experts out there would point to data showing time and temperature effects of lubricating oil damage.

[lragan]

Today I checked the fan temperature switches on both bikes.  Turns out the one that was not coming on is parked slightly aft of the other, and on the same side as the "front" (side door) of the trailer. (It is necessary to "stagger" the bikes in the trailer because the handle bars would interfere otherwise.)  Its water was just not getting hot enough.  I checked the "temperature" of the other bike as its fan cycled, and it fits right in the specification cited above.  In order to bring the temperature of the aft bike up to the point where the fan comes on, I had to shut the front door.  Got rather warm in the trailer, but its fan finally cycled -- at a lower measured temperature than the one that was "working".

So, all is well.  

What this does show is the vagaries and variables that need to be controlled to conduct valid experiments.  There are a lot of them...

As one example, the IR temperature device measured as much as 40deg F difference between the bottom of the radiator and the top, before the fan activated.  So where one measures the temperature is also important.  I took the measurements off the front of the radiator, (in the fin area -- not the plastic housing) as near as feasible to the point opposite the sensor.