Magna Owners Of Texas

Public Forums => The Garage => Topic started by: TLRam1 on August 01, 2019, 12:40:27 AM

Title: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 01, 2019, 12:40:27 AM
I am having a little erratic behavior voltage from my bike, maybe need to clean all the connecting plugs from the charging circuit.

Where are they?   
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 01, 2019, 07:37:35 AM
Under the seat...
There is one white connector with 3 yellow wires. This one is the wires from the Stator to the regulator.
There is a larger white connector (usually behind the frame bar right in front of the rear fender) that has black and red wires. This is the DC wires coming back from the regulator.
Use a volt meter...
You should see about 14.7 volts with the motor above 1500 RPM..
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 01, 2019, 03:21:36 PM
Thanks Harry, that is the info I was looking for.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 01, 2019, 03:23:16 PM
There is a larger white connector (usually behind the frame bar right in front of the rear fender) that has black and red wires. This is the DC wires coming back from the regulator.


I don't understand this sentence, did you mean going from the regulator to the battery?
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 01, 2019, 11:14:52 PM
Yes.. The larger connector comes from the Regulator and goes toward the battery (the DC side of the Regulator).
The smaller connector also goes to the Regulator, but comes from the Stator.
My 1st Magna had a bad regulator when I bought it (I did not know it) and it was overcharging..
Burnt up the battery and the 2 connectors..
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 02, 2019, 05:08:47 AM
It is charging just some erratic behavior, I may just buy another regulator and install if it is hard to get to the connectors you mentioned. If I see it being pretty easy I will check the connectors first.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 02, 2019, 07:32:17 AM
Both connectors are under the seat, you just need to find them in the nest of wires..
Changing the Regulator is the PITA...
It's mounted to the bottom of the battery box..
Small hands help
I made a mount and moved mine right behind the right side cover.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: Sledge Hammer on August 04, 2019, 12:17:08 AM
Hey, Terry, when you say "erratic behavior" what specifically have you observed?
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 06, 2019, 02:04:04 PM
It is slow to go up in voltage, could be always the way it was, just don't remember. Driving another time it was lingering around 12.8 and slowly get up to 13.3 or 4.

Currently other then the slow climbing voltage it tops out at 13.7, with all electrics off it would bust into the 14 volt range, now when at idle it will go into the 14 volt range, with some revs the voltage drops.

Just strange that might be connection issues, might not.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: Sledge Hammer on August 09, 2019, 12:52:34 AM
I'm wondering if the stator is going bad. It could be a regulator failure, but from the reading I've been doing on the shunt regulators, they can stress the stator when they fail.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 09, 2019, 01:36:33 AM
Could be I guess but a stator is wound and for it to go I would think a wire breaks and it's gone for the most part.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: Sledge Hammer on August 09, 2019, 02:49:52 AM
Yeah, definitely a broken wire would leave Tango Uniform, but if it gets too hot, the varnish on the magnet wire can break down and then you get interwinding shorting that can change the magnetic characteristics. In the worst cases, you'd lose a pole but it wouldn't have to be that dramatic before you'd get an imbalance in the phases.

By all means check the easy stuff like connectors first, but if they look okay, might be a good idea to pop the cover off and have a look at the windings.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 09, 2019, 04:32:47 AM
I will try the connections first, then regulator, then south of that.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 09, 2019, 06:12:39 PM
I've been observing (forums) and owning Gen 3's for 15 years..
I have heard and experienced:
Connector failure - usually due to corrosion over time
Regulator failures.. I've had several, both over and under voltage. I have seen at least 100 bad regulators by others.
I have only heard of ONE, yes 1, confirmed bad stator on a Gen 3.. So could it be a stator, sure.. But not very likely..
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 10, 2019, 09:49:22 PM
Do you mean these two sets of wire in the metal frame holder?
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 10, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
See attachment
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 10, 2019, 10:04:32 PM
Thanks for confirming.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 10, 2019, 10:30:29 PM
By under the plastic, I do not mean within the plastic sleeve, I mean Under the entire plastic sleeve. It is a hard rectangular connector with thick electrical wires (black and red)
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 10, 2019, 10:34:46 PM
Connector on the left is the output, the one on the right is the Stator (3 yellow wires) connector
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 19, 2019, 03:03:07 AM
Looks like I will have to take the bike apart to get to the wires like I want so I ordered a regulator and will replace after all.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 25, 2019, 02:13:51 AM
Put in the new regulator, doing the same as it did before. Something just doesn't seem right.

Before while coming back from a firework outing the voltage at one time would hang around 12.7 - 12.9 and I had to work to get the voltage to climb.

Below is a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M69rJYU4wIE
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 25, 2019, 08:51:32 AM
That still looks like a regulator to me..
I've never seen 14.anything at idle.. Ever...
The regulator is capping off the voltage at 13.8V which is too low.. It should be between 14.5 and 14.8 volts...
IF it working identical with the original regulator, then you have to look to the battery or stator, but neither makes sense to me. A stator usually you loose 1/3 of your charging ability...
You have a real mystery on your hands there..
Both regulators were very similar results??
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 25, 2019, 02:41:59 PM
Yes both regulators are similar in results. I am not confident in the reliability of this the way it is, not sure what to do from here. The battery is not old and starts the bike fine even after sitting for a couple of months not connected to a battery tender, it is a maybe.

Stator on a 3rd Gen, just have not heard of it.

Here are some refresher photos for you Hootmon. 
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 25, 2019, 02:47:25 PM
Think harder Hootmon, if you know of anyone, ask, show them the video.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 25, 2019, 04:46:24 PM
Get a hold of Lawrence.. He is the Brain Trust I rely on when I'm stumped!!
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 26, 2019, 03:49:14 AM
Lawrence, well he normally comes around but haven't seen him. I will see what I can do.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 26, 2019, 07:36:49 AM
Lawrence, well he normally comes around but haven't seen him. I will see what I can do.
He is on Facebook as well...
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 26, 2019, 02:29:11 PM
Okay, I sent Lawrence a PM, we will see if he gets that.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 27, 2019, 01:58:26 AM
I will try to find him on facebook.

I am also going to connect a jumper cable to the ground post and attach to somewhere on the frame or motor to see if I have a bad ground. It appears I am not getting enough amps, stator as Sledge Hammer mentioned?, maybe the next option.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 27, 2019, 07:45:17 AM
Stator comes in via the yellow wires through regulator then through the black connector, where is the connection that ties the regulator output to charge the battery? That would be the last connection point other than the ground wire, yes?
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on August 27, 2019, 09:13:19 PM
Stator comes in via the yellow wires through regulator then through the black connector, where is the connection that ties the regulator output to charge the battery? That would be the last connection point other than the ground wire, yes?
three yellows in... (AC voltage)
2 blacks / 2 reds out (DC voltage) Reds are hot, Blacks are ground
The only reason there is 2 Reds/Blacks is to carry enough current. The 2 reds are common to each other as well as the blacks are common..
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 30, 2019, 09:19:30 PM
Another friend recommended to check this.

I need a new volt gauge on my dash, hooked another meter to the system and it climbs on to 14.42 with no problem, 14.25 with aux. lights on.

I will see where I can get another and a new regulator with oiled up connections doesn't hurt. 
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 30, 2019, 09:28:23 PM
Now I have two spare good regulators, I replaced one when I bought the bike with 3500 miles, it was the battery and now this one I just took out.

Seems like on this bike I am quick to replaced the regulator, fortunately that has not been the problem that has left me stranded somewhere.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on August 30, 2019, 09:32:32 PM
Now I have two spare good regulators, I replaced one when I bought the bike with 3500 miles, it was the battery and now this one I just took out.

Seems like on this bike I am quick to replaced the regulator, fortunately that has not been the problem that has left me stranded somewhere.

Just ordered a new voltmeter for the bike.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: lragan on September 01, 2019, 06:41:27 PM
Here are a couple of quick observations: 
1) Your ignition module will draw substantially more current at high rpm that at idle.  Perhaps the cause of the voltage drop.
2) I am surprised that you get 14 volts at idle.  I no longer have mine to measure on, but in my memory, charging on both my bikes did not do much below 3000 rpm.
3) The total power available from the charging system, according to the manual, is about 400 watts.  I replaced my filament supplementary running lights with LED ones, as my generating system could not support the entire load I had on it, and the battery would actually discharge, even when running 5K or more RPM, with the auxiliary lights on.  With the lower current but much brighter LEDs, this problem went away.
4) It is not easy to measure the current to/from the battery.  One needs a high current, low value resistor in series with the battery, and a voltmeter across it that measures in millivolts.  I never bothered to rig up such a measuring system.
5) I relocated my regulator/rectifier, using an aftermarket unit with MOSFET instead of bipolar transistors, to the frame on the right side of the bike, just behind the side cover.  Gets it out of the high heat from the engine, and into the slipstream.  I posted some temperature measurements I made of the case of the R/R at the new location.  The only place where it was not clearly superior to the original mount under the battery box was parked at idle in direct sunlight for an extended period.
6) From your video, and with no additional load connected, it would appear that your system is not giving you the advertised 400 watts -- or your ignition system is drawing substantially more current than standard. I did not hear any misfiring, so if you have not modified it, it is probably OK.
7) I concur that a stator problem is rare.  It is possible, but not likely, that if the rotor got very hot at some point (and I mean VERY hot -- like smoking the oil) the magnetic strength could be compromised and you would not get the full output even with a good stator.
Finally, if you are coming to the reunion at Greg's place, let me know.  I will bring some test gear and we can sniff around a bit.  Might dope it out.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on September 01, 2019, 11:44:16 PM

three yellows in... (AC voltage)
2 blacks / 2 reds out (DC voltage) Reds are hot, Blacks are ground
The only reason there is 2 Reds/Blacks is to carry enough current. The 2 reds are common to each other as well as the blacks are common..

And thanks for this explanation, that made sense.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on September 02, 2019, 12:07:11 AM
NOW you show up Lawrence now that the party is over! I thought something had happened to you.

I am not aware of the reunion at Greg's place, I didn't get that email or memo, where did you hear about this or maybe Greg did not invite me for a reason. Hmm.

Thanks for the write-up and help Lawrence, looks like the voltmeter gauge on the bike is malfunctioning, the gauge was never on my radar until someone mentioned it. I hooked up a handheld voltmeter and saw normal readings, 14.42 w/o aux. lights and 14.25 w/aux lights. I have a new gauge for the bike coming. 

Once the new gauge is on I will put up a new video for reference.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on September 02, 2019, 09:49:26 AM
I told Greg NOT to invite you...
He invited me, but I said "If Terry's going, then count me out"
So he dropped you from the list...
Just joking.. I have no idea.. You know I didn't get invited!!!
Anywayz... Voltage meter eh? Who'd of thunk that???
I did send Lawrence your way BTW.. Looks like he did a bunch of head scratching for nothing, but always good to read his take on things...
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: lragan on September 03, 2019, 01:48:49 PM
Greg posted to the Facebook Page for MOOT.  For those who don't do Facebook, the event starts 10 am or so on Sept. 28th at Greg's place.  Would love to see you there, and feel certain that you would be invited if we could find you...
There were no individual invitations that I am aware of.  If you can come, send me a PM, and I will get the address for you.   8-)

I have been absent the forum since I sold my bikes.  Still melancholy about it, but it was time.  When I see you next in person, I will explain in detail.

Glad you got it sorted out.
   
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on September 05, 2019, 01:19:52 AM
It is not the gauge!

The power for the gauge comes from Switched Power, something has changed and all the voltage is not being passed to the gauge. I will have to see where the power is coming from, may just run a new wire or tie into some other source.
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: hootmon on September 05, 2019, 07:37:40 AM
It is not the gauge!

The power for the gauge comes from Switched Power, something has changed and all the voltage is not being passed to the gauge. I will have to see where the power is coming from, may just run a new wire or tie into some other source.

UUUUUUUUUUgh!!!!!
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on September 08, 2019, 10:50:18 PM
Okay, lets try to bring this to an end for MY benefit.

Tracing the switched power back it is coming out of the ignition that way (not at full voltage) not sure if the volts are going into the ignition switch this way (capped or reduced a bit) or if the ignition switch is the culprit. If it matters to anyone, the red wire out of the ignition is where the connection is tied to.   

I have been over the front of the bike (headlight and such) looking for another switched power source. The voltage gauge has three wires, power, indicated voltage and ground. I had two wires connected to the switched voltage source as there was no need to separate these two wires.

I now have separated these, I left the power wire connected to the switched power line and found a wire connected straight to the battery I tied the indicated voltage wire to. 

Reference for voltage, how it should look and work.
https://youtu.be/S8f8iLBYsY0
Title: Re: Regulator
Post by: TLRam1 on September 23, 2019, 02:03:53 AM
Lawrence,

I found MOOT on Facebook with nothing on it.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Magna-Owners-Of-Texas-moot/134303369947358