I have a regular question, then a technical question...
1) Do you fill your tank to the bottom of the neck in your tank as Honda Suggests, or do you "eek" fuel in until it is full to the top of the Neck?
For me I fill it to as close to the top of the Neck as the pump will allow (some pumps are not very Motorcycle friendly - Full on / Full off)
2) I wanted to know other peoples opinion on a thought I had.
When I fill my tank, once I get above the bottom of the neck, I have to put in small amounts of gas, and then wait for the vent tube to let air out, then put in a little more.
My thought.. What if I completely drained my tank (fumes too) and then drilled a hole in the neck just to the left of center (the tank is two halves welded together and has a seem in the middle) as close to the top of the neck as possible. This would allow the air to vent much quicker while filling, but I don't believe it would effect the purpose of the vent tube once the cap is applied.
I have wondered if rust would form where I drilled
What are the pro's and cons of this idea??
How much extra fuel, really, does one put in the tank by filling it to the top of the neck? Is it just the few thimblefuls of the neck itself, or do you get another pint or so by doing this?
The essence of the question then "Is it worth the struggle and risk?"
I confess that I sit on the bike while I fill it, and rock it back and forth so it fills to the bottom of the neck fairly quickly.
It never occurred to me to do this until I saw Devin do it one day...
I'd say and extra 5-10 miles.. Now if I got 150+ miles to a tank, I probably wouldn't worry about it, but 5-10 miles is 5-10% further per tank.. Your not just filling the neck. Your really filling the entire top of the tank, you just have to wait for the vent to let the air out behind the neck.. Thus my question about drilling the hole, this would speed up the process and stop the stupid rocking business..
I say go for it....and then let the rest of us know what happened :lol:
Be careful using an electric drill near an open gas tank.
Sorry, I see you already mentioned it would be empty and clean.
How full can you go before it goes out the vent tube?
Remember that fuel is underground temperature at about 65 degrees when you pump it and in summer the fuel will start to expand as it heats up. It will take up more room and has to go somewhere. I think that is why the neck is designed that way (to facilitate leaving enough air space for expansion). Wintertime, you're probably not going to cause a problem topping off the tank.
Curtis
Quote from: Curtis_Valk on December 19, 2008, 08:39:15 PM
How full can you go before it goes out the vent tube?
Remember that fuel is underground temperature at about 65 degrees when you pump it and in summer the fuel will start to expand as it heats up. It will take up more room and has to go somewhere. I think that is why the neck is designed that way (to facilitate leaving enough air space for expansion). Wintertime, you're probably not going to cause a problem topping off the tank.
Curtis
Well, you just have to ride fast enough to use the gas down before it heats up!! Curtis, you should have no problem with this, from what Dave says...
Quote from: Curtis_Valk on December 19, 2008, 08:39:15 PM
How full can you go before it goes out the vent tube?
Remember that fuel is underground temperature at about 65 degrees when you pump it and in summer the fuel will start to expand as it heats up. It will take up more room and has to go somewhere. I think that is why the neck is designed that way (to facilitate leaving enough air space for expansion). Wintertime, you're probably not going to cause a problem topping off the tank.
Curtis - I don't think you can easily fill your tank full enough to make fuel spit out the vent tube. Even with
reasonable expansion.
1) I think this is why the vent tube seems to be on the right side of the tank. By this I mean when you put the bike on the kickstand, whatever air there is in the tank will move to the right side of the tank.
2) Usually when you fill the bike, you go somewhere else afterwords. (Using some fuel)
3) I frequently fill my tank up to just below the top of the tank (I know which pumps locally to go to that are "friendly" - My wife, who also rides, and I have a pump rating system we use when we fill up.. I usually fill 1st (since I have the credit card handy) and when I hand her the pump, I let her know... Oh this pump is a 7, or it's a 3, etc).
4) I live in Florida.. I fill my tank frequently within about a mile from my house. I have never once had fuel come out my vent tube while sitting in my garage at 90+ degrees
5) The fuel fill hole is not at the top of the tank. This means no matter how much fuel you put in the tank, there is always some air.
Has Anyone ever had fuel pour out the gas tank fuel vent tube (Note: I did not ask out any tube..IF you have had float issues, fuel can pour out a tube, but it is a carb tube, not a tank vent tube).
Quote from: Herman on December 19, 2008, 08:14:23 PM
I say go for it....and then let the rest of us know what happened :lol:
I attempt to seek wisdom before gaining experience...!
Proverbs 19:20 msg ... Take good counsel and accept correction - that's the way to live wisely and well.
Hoot, I have talked about this subject and my plans to do this on one of my tanks if not both. Charles measured how much room was left in the tank for me. I will be using a Dremel to drill a small pilot hole than move up to a larger hole. Mine will be on the neck on the right side.
Quote from: TLRam1 on December 20, 2008, 01:57:18 AM
Hoot, I have talked about this subject and my plans to do this on one of my tanks if not both. Charles measured how much room was left in the tank for me. I will be using a Dremel to drill a small pilot hole than move up to a larger hole. Mine will be on the neck on the right side.
Oh sure Terry.. Not even implemented and you're already re-designing! :lol:
Are you doing this for the same reasons I listed?
When are you planning on doing this?
A review of the success/failure when your done... AND of course PICTURES!!!!
Thanx
Here are a couple of threads I talked about this, one has Charles measurement in theory what could be gained. Yes, I would be doing this for the same reasons even on my larger tank. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. You may have eluded to the vent being at the top around the filler neck, IIRC.
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=1626.msg12340#msg12340
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=2173.msg17038#msg17038
Thanx Terry for the links.. So, lots of discussion, but nobody had done it yet.. Correct?
Correct, I don't think anyone else had the desire to do this just myself. I will in due time. When the larger tank came it was not as urgent, also had an issue after fill-up on a couple of cases and these other bikes kept me busy.
So, I am waiting to see where I hear the first explosion -- from Plano or from South Florida... :cool:
Quote[Here are a couple of threads I talked about this, one has Charles measurement in theory what could be gained/quote]
Terry I done told you it weren't no theory, :D I filled the top of the tank up to the bottom of the neck and it held 1 and 1/2 quart ( tank was upside down with no bottom). That is the absolute most it will hold with no air pockets, so just drilling a hole in the neck won't even net you that much.
and yes you did Charles, in theory it will hold that much but it's not an absolute when you factor in the air pocket, I'm with ya, 8-) and will use this valuable info at some point.
Let me add something to this...
I fill it up pass the neck anyways, takes a while though, how much more I would gain I don't know but by drilling the hole I could get it past the neck and fill the tank up quicker. So it's not just to get more fuel in the tank but do it faster with less problems of splashing. If I could gain another quart (10 miles), that would be pretty for me.
Quote from: lragan on December 21, 2008, 09:03:26 PM
So, I am waiting to see where I hear the first explosion -- from Plano or from South Florida... :cool:
Florida for sure, I wouldn't admit it. :lol: :-P Hoot you need to strike a match to insure all of the fuel is out of the tank......if anyone else reads this, this is a joke, ok, Hoot already knows to use a match.
You folks don't know me as well as my wife does.. She replaced all of my tools with Nerf tools :shock:.
So, I'll be using a Nerf Drill bit, So I don't have to worry about sparks & stuff...
My wife won't let me play with matches :( ... anymore...
No offense guys, but it sure seems like a lot of thought and effort for a few extra cc's of fuel. IMO
Quote from: DG on December 22, 2008, 09:27:49 AM
No offense guys, but it sure seems like a lot of thought and effort for a few extra cc's of fuel. IMO
You call it a few cc's, I called it a few thimblefuls. Neither of us see the benefits very clearly, it appears.
The essence of the debate is just how much more fuel can you stuff in there? I think we have it bracketed:
1) Charles set the absolute maximum at 1.5 quarts, as I read his note above.
2) The neck itself is about (I am going to approximate here, because it is 27 degrees outside and I don't want to uncover the bike to measure) 5 cm across and 7 cm deep. By my calculator, that shows 137 cc. That is if you filled it right to the very tippy - tip - top, probably spilling gasoline over the tank and down onto the engine. So call it 100 cc's or 0.1 liter.
The extra fuel one could stuff in the tank falls between these two limits. Should we start a pool on the actual number?
By my understanding, one can access most of the extra capacity by rocking the bike back and forth so the air flows out the vent tube, and gradually putting more gas in as a result. I have observed that the level drops a bit when you rock the bike. Maybe you access all the extra space with this technique, maybe not.
I think Terry's point is that he hopes to save time, not necessarily add more gasoline at each fill-up.
As for me, I don't get in that big a hurry, as I have a firm rule that I never hurry while on the bike. It is relax time for me, and I don't tolerate time pressure in my goof off time. As for extra range, my bladder never lasts that long anyhow. :-) :-)
As for extra range, my bladder never lasts that long anyhow.
+1 on that Lawrence. I seem to have to "go" more when I am riding as well. When I ride with my uncle and he is on his valkyrie, my eyes seem to start floating because he wants to go a rediculous distance like 150 miles :lol: without stopping. :cool:
ESPECIALLY on the motorcycle!! Although I have found wearing loose wasted pants helps. :shock:
QuoteWhen I ride with my uncle and he is on his valkyrie, my eyes seem to start floating because he wants to go a rediculous distance like 150 miles without stopping.
He wouldn't go 150 miles on my Valk, :-( (I'm getting about 28 mpg) I have to fill up before my wife does on the Magna.
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on December 22, 2008, 12:12:44 PM
He wouldn't go 150 miles on my Valk, :-( (I'm getting about 28 mpg) I have to fill up before my wife does on the Magna.
Do you have a 97 Valk???
98, I'm hoping it just needs Sea Foam and lots of riding..
I agree with Lawrence, but didn't think it was fair to put my foot forward since I've got 6.9 gallons to play with. However when I had my '99 Magna I never fretted with getting more fuel in. As a matter of fact, I never fill up while sitting on the bike for safety reasons so it's always on the side stand. I usually fill to the neck then give it a couple of extra squirts for good measure and then I'm off. Same technique I've always used, even with the small 3rd Gen Magna tank.
Curtis
Quote from: Curtis_Valk on December 22, 2008, 03:55:02 PM
I agree with Lawrence, but didn't think it was fair to put my foot forward since I've got 6.9 gallons to play with.
Curtis
I don't mind your 2 cents, I like trying something different to get more out of and in it, that's quicker, easier for not too much time or difficulty to try. :-P
Egad, Curtis, it never occurred to me that sitting on the bike whilst filling it was dangerous, but I see your point!
It would be terribly ironic to survive the misjudged curves, soccer moms on cell phones, punctured tires, etc. only to be burned to death at the gas pump!!
Think I will go back to the old way.
Thanks,
Lawrence
On a post somewhere, it was mentioned to run your tank dry. I did that with my larger tank. Ran it dry to reserve than dry to the bone and I have on other bikes shaken it back and forth to get to a station.
Quote from: lragan on December 22, 2008, 04:30:31 PM
Egad, Curtis, it never occurred to me that sitting on the bike whilst filling it was dangerous, but I see your point!
It would be terribly ironic to survive the misjudged curves, soccer moms on cell phones, punctured tires, etc. only to be burned to death at the gas pump!!
Think I will go back to the old way.
Thanks,
Lawrence
Yes ............terribly ironic!
Curtis
Quote from: TLRam1 on December 22, 2008, 04:31:03 PM
On a post somewhere, it was mentioned to run your tank dry. I did that with my larger tank. Ran it dry to reserve than dry to the bone and I have on other bikes shaken it back and forth to get to a station.
Sounds like a good way to get trash into your carbs... ALthough, since I just put 3.5+ gallons in my bike, I must have been pretty close...
In-line filter, next...... You keep trying to catch me slipping up, ain't gonna happen. :-P You have a way of making me look like I'm on the top of my game, keep it up!
:-) OK, no offense Terry, but I would think you have enough projects on your plate to make this one a waste of time and effort.
Now, Hootman on the other hand.... well enough said. :-P :-P :-P :lol: :lol:
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on December 22, 2008, 12:12:44 PM
QuoteWhen I ride with my uncle and he is on his valkyrie, my eyes seem to start floating because he wants to go a rediculous distance like 150 miles without stopping.
He wouldn't go 150 miles on my Valk, :-( (I'm getting about 28 mpg) I have to fill up before my wife does on the Magna.
Charles, my uncle's bike is a 98 as well. It has the hard side bags on it. He was at MOOTmag6 with me but we left before you came in on Friday. Anyway, he was having carb issues on his bike as well. I pulled the carbs with help from Greg C. and they were terribly corroded. Cleaned everything up and did a sync on the carbs. 2 carbs were out of sync pretty significant, but I don't remember which one's. I do remember the air cleaner was pretty onry to get off. :mad: Anyway, he was the second owner of the bike, and the bike had sat for 1 year. When he started riding it, I told him to run seafoam in the carbs. It ran fine for a while until the seafoam started breaking all of the tarnish loose in the carb bowls. Then it plugged his jets up. When I pulled his carb bowls, it looked like mud in there. I drained the bowls and cleaned everything up. If i were you I would go ahead and clean the carbs. That way you won't have to go thru the same problems he encountered. :-D[/color]
I tend to agree that it's probably the carbs, but it only cuts out at lower speeds, seems to run pretty good at higher speeds. I notice it most when I'm easing around in slow traffic, and even then not all the time just occasionally. I do smell strong fumes when setting still which convinces me it's the carbs, but the plugs look clean. I'm planning on having another wrenching session this spring and hoping some our Valk Gurus will attend and give me their input. If the gas milage doesn't improve I'll probably end up removing the carbs for a good cleaning. Until then it runs like a bat ooh at higher speeds so I just won't slow down till I have to stop :D. Thanks for the in put on your uncle's Valk, gives me hope. It did improve his mpg didn't it?
Charles, to be honest he has never mentioned the fuel mileage difference.(and I never asked him). He never reset's his odometer, just rides until he has to put it on reserve. He did say that it is a lot smoother and runs a lot better due to the carb cleaning. Greg C. and I came to the conclusion that he had a dynojet kit in the carb's because of the notches on the needles when I had it apart. I richened it up one notch. I will ask him if it helped though. I do know that he can easily go 150 miles before a refill though. I don't remember if he went on reserve or not though on that 150. You have a great bike, I really enjoyed riding the Valk. The uncle has aftermarket exhaust on his, and it sounds awesome above 4000 rpm.. :D
I'm more concerned with the mpg right now, I went from 50 mpg on the Magna to about 28 mpg on the Valk, I was expecting from 38 to 40 at least. I'm not even sure which size Valk tank I have, guess I need to do a little research. And thanks again, let me know what he says about the mpg.
Charles, I would check the air filter, muffler/header bolts, plugs, etc. That will give ya a good starting baseline.
I just got the heater going in my shop again so it's fixing to get a good going over. I'm removing several parts for cleaning and polishing so it will be a good time to check those things you mentioned, thanks..
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on December 21, 2008, 10:21:57 PM
Quote[Here are a couple of threads I talked about this, one has Charles measurement in theory what could be gained
Terry I done told you it weren't no theory, :D I filled the top of the tank up to the bottom of the neck and it held 1 and 1/2 quart ( tank was upside down with no bottom). That is the absolute most it will hold with no air pockets, so just drilling a hole in the neck won't even net you that much.
OK.. I filled my tank so that there was gas all the way around the neck at the bottom.. I then proceeded to fill the neck (and surrounding tank behind the neck). The additional amount was 0.365 gallons.. I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but it is an additional 14+ miles to reserve.. If I had a tank that went 160 - 200 miles, I'd say Big Deal..
But with a tank that only gets me 100 miles, then an added 14+ miles is 15% farther.. That's pretty good..
As to the note above.. Even if you fill it to the top of the gas cap hole, there is still air space in the tank but .365 gallons would come pretty close to 1.5 quarts...
I have to agree that an additional 14 miles is a HUGE plus. Having pushed a bike out of gas before, just an extra 5 miles would have been a Blessing.
Good info Hoot, correlates well with Charles's measurement. I have not drilled mine but I will.....one day, little doubt it will help, how much faster, we will have to see.
Terry, be sure and use your stop watch 8) we want an accurate measurement :D :D :D..
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on January 06, 2009, 07:57:30 PM
Terry, be sure and use your stop watch 8) we want an accurate measurement :D :D :D..
Haha, no, I trust your measurement! Hoot confirmed how much of your measurement actually fits.
Quote from: hootmon on January 06, 2009, 04:29:04 PM
The additional amount was 0.365 gallons.. I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but it is an additional 14+ miles to reserve..
You know, even though I've poo poo'd the idea of trying to force another few ounces of fuel in the tank that is exactly the justification I've used for carrying my MSR bottles
(http://www.msrgear.com/stoves/images/fuelbottle_large.jpg)
I carry one to four of them with me always. When asked about their limited capacity my reply is "Each one of those is ten miles I don't have to walk". I think I see your point after all.
Curtis
I like those. I am sure on some of your longer rides there are some pretty good stretches with no gas. What size do you carry?
Quote from: TLRam1 on January 06, 2009, 08:14:48 PM
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on January 06, 2009, 07:57:30 PM
Terry, be sure and use your stop watch 8) we want an accurate measurement :D :D :D..
Haha, no, I trust your measurement! Hoot confirmed how much of your measurement actually fits.
You sort of lost me there, Terry. I thought Charles had measured the additional gasoline capacity. What he, and I really want to know is how much time the hole you propose to drill will actually save at each fill-up. If it isn't substantial, I am not interested. If it is, then maybe I will get out the drill and risk metal flakes in my carbs...
Quote from: lragan on January 07, 2009, 09:19:24 AM
You sort of lost me there, Terry. I thought Charles had measured the additional gasoline capacity. What he, and I really want to know is how much time the hole you propose to drill will actually save at each fill-up. If it isn't substantial, I am not interested. If it is, then maybe I will get out the drill and risk metal flakes in my carbs...
Nope, you didn't lose the idea Lawrence.
The object is, in no certain order.
1. Fill up faster.
2. Fill up the tank higher
3. Reduce splash back when filling up past the neck.
I thought about the metal shavings.
Thinking out loud.
1. Won't hurt to leave them in, will not rust as they stay in gas anyway.
2. Petcock has a filter to prevent them entering fuel line.
3. I do have an in-line filter anyway
4. Use a magnet through the tank filler neck while drilling to catch what shavings I can, except I don't think I have a magnet.
5. Probably be able to rinse most shavings out anyway
I guess with so much talk I will get make the effort to get this done sooner. Any helpful ideas before I blow my tank up? Wonder if I can use starter fluid to get the dent out of my tank?
QuoteWonder if I can use starter fluid to get the dent out of my tank?
Let us know if this works!! :shock: I have a dent I would like to get out.
Quote from: DG on January 07, 2009, 01:19:57 PM
QuoteWonder if I can use starter fluid to get the dent out of my tank?
Let us know if this works!! :shock: I have a dent I would like to get out.
Fill it with air, lots of it.
When I did the Iron Butt I carried a fuel cell like Curtis for insurance. Never had to use it. Curtis, I did have a problem with a leak with the rubber seal. Did you ever have that problem?
Quote from: DG on January 07, 2009, 01:19:57 PM
QuoteWonder if I can use starter fluid to get the dent out of my tank?
Let us know if this works!! :shock: I have a dent I would like to get out.
Yeah, but the tank is metal, so you need to really get the pressure up.. (http://i42.tinypic.com/2la6jk8.jpg) So, empty the gas, take the fuel hose off the fuel valve.. Open the cap and fill with starter fluid.. Replace cap..
Now light via the fuel valve(http://i41.tinypic.com/257k86x.jpg)..That way you will get plenty of pressure build up!!! (http://i44.tinypic.com/ilm0e9.jpg)
******Don't try this at home.. Only professionals and Dum6-4553S should attempt this procedure..****
I hope no one takes you guys serious :-?, You push dents out of tanks with water pressure, not air, of any kind, and these Honda tanks will not take enough pressure to pop a dent out without deforming the bottom of the tank or ripping the seam out. There are safe ways to get the dents out without blowing something up. Be careful what you say in jest, never know when someone with no experience may take you serious and try something dumb..
Quote from: DG on January 07, 2009, 07:07:25 AM
I like those. I am sure on some of your longer rides there are some pretty good stretches with no gas. What size do you carry?
I use the largest size which is 30 oz. to the fill line (leaving recommended air space for expansion). I carry four (two in each saddle bag) if I'm on the "big" bike and if I'm on the "little" Valk I carry one or two in my magnetic tank bag. I have never needed to use them for any emergency, but once every six months or so I empty them into the lawn mower and start fresh with Sta-bil treated new gasoline.
Curtis
Quote from: rjb/AKA Bob Barram on January 07, 2009, 02:40:09 PM
When I did the Iron Butt I carried a fuel cell like Curtis for insurance. Never had to use it. Curtis, I did have a problem with a leak with the rubber seal. Did you ever have that problem?
No, I have not. Not so much as even a fuel smell in my saddle bags they seal so good. Be sure to leave the recommended air space. I have been cautioned that ethanol is not friendly to aluminum, but no corrosion yet. Maybe 10% is not strong enough to be harmful.
Curtis
Curtis, never saw a fill line, maybe that was the problem.
In lieu of the bottles I carry a siphon hose, if no one is with me I'm out of luck, those bottles are not a bad idea at 12.00 plus shipping for the large one.
You can get them at sports stores also, they are called fuel cells.
Quote from: TLRam1 on January 07, 2009, 10:34:17 PM
In lieu of the bottles I carry a siphon hose
I carry a siphon hose in case I have to refill the bottles. They would be next to impossible to fill from the service station pumps.
My concern with carrying a hose alone is getting enough elevation difference between tanks (if filling tank to tank) to maintain a siphon. BTW, I bought a siphon hose with a squeeze bulb. My days of mouth starting the siphon and then burping gas fumes hours later are long gone.
Curtis
I think....mine has a check valve where you can actually pump the gas into another tank.
Well as somebody else has already mentioned, my gas tank is bigger than my bladder anyway. Still, I can find places to empty the bladder where there isn't necessarily gas.
Ya know, I wonder if I just drank gas, then ran a catheter to the gas tank if I'd maintain enough octane to keep the engine running. Sort a solve two problems at once.
Quote from: TLRam1 on January 08, 2009, 03:09:33 PM
I think....mine has a check valve where you can actually pump the gas into another tank.
Mine's cheap, no check valve. I have to put my finger on the end of the hose at the proper time while filling the bulb and hose. It's all siphon after that.
Curtis
I keep a hose that will fit my petcock.