Ok so wanted to know how the Dynabeads are doing I figure it one of those things you forget about butttttttttt I wanted to see if you would buy again? Was the cost too much and would you buy them if they were cheaper?
Since we need 2oz for the front and 3oz for the back kinda easy just wanted to get an Idea of how it is going !!!!
I am going somewhere with this !!!!
It's going great as far as I can tell..
Won't know for sure until I take the Car tire off, and it looks like that is going to be a while yet..
I have over 10K and the tire is still very much in balance...
I will purchase more in the future, but I also don't see why the product would not be reusable..
Take the tire off, reclaim the beads, clean them off some with a good degreaser, and reinsert in a new tire.. So if you can use them in more than one tire over time, does that make the cost more reasonable???
Quote from: roboto65 on November 17, 2009, 08:57:43 AM
Since we need 2oz for the front and 3oz for the back kinda easy just wanted to get an Idea of how it is going !!!!
I'm a tad bit confused here :???:. I was under the impression only 1oz. was needed for the front and 2oz's for the rear.
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/chart.htm#MotorcycleChart
Well ya see when some of them went Darkside thus the 3oz forgot about the front 1oz sounds good to me !!!
Quote from: roboto65 on November 17, 2009, 11:30:44 AM
Well ya see when some of them went Darkside thus the 3oz forgot about the front 1oz sounds good to me !!!
It'd be a little cheaper anyhow. :-)
I haven't had mine long enough to give any type of lifetime reading. I bought 3 oz for like $6, but it cost me $7 to have them shipped!!
Well lets just say I can get you the beads for 1.50 an oz you in ??? :cool: :cool: Who is ordering LOL
Being a naturally curious person, I wondered if maybe bird shot would work as well. So this afternoon, I disemboweled a couple of shotgun shells and relieved them of their #8 lead shot.
I tried the famous "spinning bottle" experiment. Took a plastic pop bottle, drilled the lid dead center, put a bolt through the lid, chucked it up and turned it in a hand drill. As I expected, it spun true. I then weighed a small bolt from the spare bolt pile, and the two shells' fill of shot. The shot weighed like 3x the bolt.
Taped the bolt to the outside of the bottle, and sure enough, it was severely unbalanced. Poured the shot in the bottle, and it had a negative effect, if any at all. Took the bolt off the outside of the bottle. The bottle spun true, with the shot rolling harmlessly in the lowest surface of the bottle.
So then I decided to try the rest of the dynabeads, as a check. Dumped out the shot, inserted the dynabeads, and behold! They made the unbalance worse! They generate a lot of static electricity and stick to the side of anything plastic that contains them, including the squeeze dispenser bottle I filched from the wife's kitchen where I store them. They tend to distribute themselves around the circumference of the inside of the bottle.
So then I removed the bolt, and the beads, retested the bottle empty to see if it still ran true, put the beads back in the bottle, and it quickly became unstable, with no unbalancing weight at all.
Now I am wishing I had tried the new tires by riding them before I put dynabeads in the rear (car) tire. As stated before, the bike runs super-smooth. Smoother than any I have ever ridden.
So now I am totally confused. I have read conflicting opinions on boards about the effectiveness of this product, and I don't know what to think.
Have any of you run the test in the correct order? Pump up and ride the tire, then insert the beads and compare the results?
The best I can do is say that the Magna I put the car tire on had about 2 oz on the rim to balance it I put the beads in and removed the lead and had no problems with balance at all. Now what kinda bottle did you use because profile has a lot to do with it to the beads will not work in a wide tire.
Also the static is normal
When you come to a stop, do the beads fall to the bottom of the tire?
Yes. Due to a small static charge built up between the bead and rubber interaction, a few will remain attached to the tire circumference, but only a very small amount. The rest fall to the bottom and reposition themselves when the tire starts rolling again.
OK, I did use an 8 oz Diet Dr. Pepper bottle -- it is "wider" (in the test sense) than it is "tall". These are with the bottle laying down, so the normal "height" is actually the "width" as it simulates a tire.
The demo I saw used a quart or 1/2 gallon bottle, which will have a different ratio, but is still "wider" than it is "tall".
Hmmm. Maybe I will look for another test container that better simulates a tire's shape. I would still like to know if the beads have to be ceramic, or if lead or steel would also work (and be a lot cheaper!)
My assumption is that the electrostatic attraction (to the bottle) and repulsion (from other beads) is not key to their operation. Or is it??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg
Is this the video :cool:
I have aquestion about installing the beads, several suggestion on filling thru the valve stem have been offered. My question is, can the beads be added while the tire is being mounted, that is assuming your replacing the tire anyway?
Yeah that is the best time to do it
Quote from: lragan on November 17, 2009, 04:17:58 PM
Taped the bolt to the outside of the bottle, and sure enough, it was severely unbalanced. Poured the shot in the bottle, and it had a negative effect, if any at all. Took the bolt off the outside of the bottle. The bottle spun true, with the shot rolling harmlessly in the lowest surface of the bottle.
What you are saying here is the shot had no effect, correct? What if the bolt were a bit lighter than the shot? What you put into a tire may only handle a certain percentage of the off balance weight.
Actually, Terry, when the bottle was out of balance, the shot tended to move toward the weight, making the imbalance worse. The shot had no effect only in a balanced bottle.
The dyna-beads, on the other hand, tended to cling to the inside of the bottle, and would imbalance an otherwise balanced bottle (without the bolt taped on the outside).
There may have been too much weight in shot, and it might have worked with less, I don't know.
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on November 17, 2009, 07:20:45 PM
I have a question about installing the beads, several suggestion on filling thru the valve stem have been offered. My question is, can the beads be added while the tire is being mounted, that is assuming your replacing the tire anyway?
I tried that, but being a car tire, I had to make multiple attempts to get the tire mounted and got quite a bit of moisture in the tire from the mounting process.. So I wound up taking the beads back out, getting the tire mounted, then putting the beads in..
If it were for a motorcycle tire, pre-installing would probably be fine..
I did not find the baster method all that bad, and would do it again..
I keep wondering about those things since they seem a lot like snake oil to me.
What material are they?
How about this for a test, get a tire mounted at a shop with a spin balancer, check the balance, add the beads, re-spin and check to see if they really do balance properly.
It seems that under acceleration and/or deceleration the tire would unbalance and then presumably re-balance. I'm sticking to lead weights, things that move around make me nervous.
QuoteDue to a small static charge built up between the bead and rubber interaction, a few will remain attached to the tire circumference, but only a very small amount. The rest fall to the bottom and reposition themselves when the tire starts rolling again.
How do you know?? Clear tire?? :shock: ;-)
QuoteI have aquestion about installing the beads, several suggestion on filling thru the valve stem have been offered. My question is, can the beads be added while the tire is being mounted, that is assuming your replacing the tire anyway?
I would put them through the stem after the tire has a chance to dry after the install. That is what I did anyway. since I used a "lubricant" when installing the tire. I let them sit awhile first.
I still LOVE mine. I have around 5k miles or more and have had NO issues at all.
Ok well snake oil or not I will have some for the MOOT for a reduced price of 1.50 an oz do not think shipping will be much so if anybody needs some let me know !!
What I have thought about doing is...balance a tire first, than add these.
QuoteHow about this for a test, get a tire mounted at a shop with a spin balancer, check the balance, add the beads, re-spin and check to see if they really do balance properly.
The shop I bought my beads from says they have a balance machine and won't use it anymore. every tire they do gets dyna beads or balanced by someone else.
QuoteWhat I have thought about doing is...balance a tire first, than add these.
I think that should work well. Especially for car tires and have thought about doing it on my Suburban. Seems the tires need to be balanced every 10k miles or so anyway so maybe a good balance and the beads inside might keep it good for the life of the tire. I HATE going and sitting and waiting on a balance/rotate. free or not. I would rather just do the rotate myself at home in half the time.
Quote from: DG on November 18, 2009, 04:38:32 PM
QuoteWhat I have thought about doing is...balance a tire first, than add these.
I think that should work well. Seems the tires need to be balanced every 10k miles or so anyway so maybe a good balance and the beads inside might keep it good for the life of the tire. I HATE going and sitting and waiting on a balance/rotate. free or not. I would rather just do the rotate myself at home in half the time.
You said it better than I.
I'm just getting in on this...I'm not so much of a "why or how does it work" kind of guy and proving the theory is not for me. I leave that to the guys who have the inquiring minds and time to test it out! I just want to know if it works plain and simple. I've been the guinea pig more than once...some good and some not so good. I'm not actually the guinea pig here someone else gets credit for that. I trusted him and glad I did.
I'm currently running dyna beads in my 86 V65 and my 83 V65. I did this when putting on new tires on the 86 and through the valve stem on the 83. 1oz front and 2oz rear. Through the stem just takes more time and is a small pain but nothing like a non-anesthesia vasectomy.
I had already put new radials on my 83, naturally the balance weights were wrong especially the front. I was checking local shops for balancing my wheels. Don't remember exactly what the cost was but it was high to me. Took the old weights off and quickly realized approaching 50 mph was no good, the front was way out.
My friend Rod told me about dyna beads. I installed on both bikes.
My wheels are balanced perfectly at any speed. The 86 I ride most always has never been so smooth. I know the radials might have a little to do with that but the front (and rear) on the 83 is smooth as glass now. The 86 always felt good but when I put the radials and dyna beads on I was amazed in the smoothness. I'm not trying to tie the beads with the use of radials it's what I'm using and could possibly make some difference, I don't know. I have 2 V45's both are getting new tires soon but not radials. I will be installing the beads. I don't think it will make any difference (radial or bias) when it comes to the performance of the beads. I have since learned that you can recover and re-use the beads, not sure what the bead company says about that but it has been done successfully several times. Hope this helps.....
Well anyone that needs some let me know !!! Shoot me a PM with how much you need !!!
Thanks, Hoss.
I am going on the assumption that my experiment is flawed, not my experience -- which, though much more limited than yours, yields similar results. I have never ridden a bike that was this smooth.
I may rip the weights off the front and add beads to that tire as well.
The beads are made of ceramic material. Ceramics have to be fired from a "green" (malleable) state, and I expect the price of the beads relates to the manufacturing process. I haven't a clue how they pull this off.
The point of my experiment was not to disprove the value of the beads, but to find out if other materials would work. Number 12 shot is similar in diameter, but made of lead or steel, much cheaper.
I haven't given up yet, I am just in a pause while I do other things...
Lawrence,
Thanks is to you....You think outside the box! Which is exactly what it takes sometimes to find an alternative solution. We all benefit from guys like you. I admire and appreciate reading you and others experiments, testing of a theory or sharing your knowledge. Successful or not...I learn something.
Quote from: Hoss83 on November 20, 2009, 07:43:15 AM
Lawrence,
Thanks is to you....You think outside the box! Which is exactly what it takes sometimes to find an alternative solution. We all benefit from guys like you. I admire and appreciate reading you and others experiments, testing of a theory or sharing your knowledge. Successful or not...I learn something.
Yeah, what Hoss said... And besides, It's much easier getting bird shot into a tire.. That whole putting ceramic pellets through a valve stem is taxing on an unpatient person like me..
One Kablam (http://i39.tinypic.com/16bipaq.jpg) , and at least a few of the birdshot pellets have to get inside the tire!!!
Quote from: hootmon on November 20, 2009, 07:50:33 AM
...One Kablam (http://i39.tinypic.com/16bipaq.jpg) , and at least a few of the birdshot pellets have to get inside the tire!!!
Gee, Hoot, do you think there might be deleterious side effects to this injection method?
Quote from: lragan on November 20, 2009, 09:19:24 AM
Gee, Hoot, do you think there might be deleterious side effects to this injection method?
Just whip out those 50 cent words dude (http://i41.tinypic.com/257k86x.jpg) ..
Confuse us all.. (http://i40.tinypic.com/53mwzm.jpg)
:grin:
QuoteNumber 12 shot is similar in diameter, but made of lead or steel, much cheaper.
but the weight sure aint the same as the ceramic beads.
QuoteAnd besides, It's much easier getting bird shot into a tire.. That whole putting ceramic pellets through a valve stem is taxing on an unpatient person like me..
I guess I was lucky, the 2 times I have used the dyna beads they went in super smooth and easy.
I did not order their installation kit, just the beads. Used a squeeze bottle dispenser that honey came in, and a short length of flexible tubing left over from my air horn installation. No sweat installing these little hummers.
As for weight of shot, maybe that is an issue -- for the same weight, one would not have nearly so many beads.
Allen I would like to participate in any order -- I could use 7 to 10 oz.
Definition of the $0.50 word of the day. And before anyone asks, yes I had to look it up, most of us rednecks don't keep words like that lying around. :lol:
Main Entry: del·e·te·ri·ous
Pronunciation: \ˌde-lə-ˈtir-ē-əs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Greek dēlētērios, from dēleisthai to hurt
Date: 1643
: harmful often in a subtle or unexpected way <deleterious effects> <deleterious to health>
synonyms see pernicious
— del·e·te·ri·ous·ly adverb
— del·e·te·ri·ous·ness noun
QuoteGee, Hoot, do you think there might be deleterious side effects to this injection method?
Now that the rest of us know what that word means, I would think the answer is "No".
The results might be unexpected from a naive soul, but I doubt they would be subtle by anyone's standards. :lol:
Pardon me if this has already been mentioned, BUT. What is the material that makes up the Dyna Beads?
I would be leery of lead shot deteriorating as it bounces around and etc against each other, and potentially creating a problem.
They will go out. Tuesday Lawrence Thanks they should be here Monday
I balanced my front wheel with it on the bike with a spin-up wheel balancer. We just jacked the front of the bike up. This is the only TRUE way to balance a tire because you balance the whole wheel, tire, and axle with it on the bike. Many times you will take your car tires and have them balanced, and they take them off the vehicle and spin them up separetely. Then you put them back on and it falls out of balance somewhere. This is due to the fact that spindles, axle shafts, etc are at play now. I work sometimes on the weekend's with my brother and family who own and run Tontitown Frame and Axle. You would be amazed at how many people put brand new tires on at Goodyear or ?? and leave and 15 minutes later call us for a wheel balance. We spin up the tire and the right/left fender shakes as if it is going to fall off. Once done, smooth as a kitten. All my vehicles get their tires balanced this way. We have people stop in from all over the nation to get their tires balanced, especially semi trucks. Been doing it for people since 1970. Now we have seen many different brand of tires on many different vehicles, and for quality and trueness, it has always hands down been Michelin in our opinion.
Sorry if I got of subject.... :lol:
Quote from: Greg Cothern on November 20, 2009, 05:32:07 PM
Pardon me if this has already been mentioned, BUT. What is the material that makes up the Dyna Beads?
I would be leery of lead shot deteriorating as it bounces around and etc against each other, and potentially creating a problem.
The Dyna-beads are ceramic. Perhaps this is the secret. They neither compress nor corrode, although if dinged hard enough, they will break.
Quote from: lragan on November 20, 2009, 07:36:30 PM
The Dyna-beads are ceramic. Perhaps this is the secret. They neither compress nor corrode, although if dinged hard enough, they will break.
They are probably small enough and light enough to not do damage to the inside of the tire/wheel as well.. Just a thought..
They have been in use for a while and I do not think they have caused any issues with tire wear inside.. I will putting them in the wifes truck and Gavins car and my Valk.
Quote from: Greg Cothern on November 20, 2009, 05:32:07 PM
I would be leery of lead shot deteriorating as it bounces around and etc against each other, and potentially creating a problem.
This is a valid point, in my view.
I present the following theory on how these beads work. Start with the beads just inserted, and the tire inflated. I assume that most of the beads reside in the lowest part of the tire, as it sits on the ground, just due to gravity. I say most of them because of electrostatic forces which come into play, which I will get to later.
As the tire begins to rotate, the beads must acquire kinetic energy from friction with the inside of the tire. If the tire were frictionless (an impossible ideal for purposes of illustration), the beads would roll around and stay near the ground, responding only to gravity. The inside of the tire is rough, however, especially from the point of view of the tiny bead. Let's concentrate on a particular bead for a moment, and get back to the others later. As our intrepid bead begins to sling around inside the tire, due to energy it has acquired from friction with the inside of the tire, the question becomes "where does it come to rest on the inside of the tire?". Actually "rest" is a misnomer here as it is whirling around at the rate of rotation of the tire.
Assuming that the tire distends in the direction of the heaviest part of the tire/wheel/axle assembly, (A reasonable assumption, since the rubber is constrained but flexible. The reason that a tire left unbalanced will get out of round.) then the tire takes on the shape of a cam, be it ever so slightly. The first thought is obvious -- the bead will migrate to the portion of the tire furthest from the axle, as it is being constrained by the tire from flying off in a straight line. I think this assumption is incorrect, because of energy considerations. The kinetic energy of the bead is related to its mass and the square of its velocity. The velocity of a point on the inside of the tire is proportional to its distance from the center of the axle, so to settle in the "bulge" of the tire requires the bead to acquire more energy than to settle closest to the axle.
Our little bead is a good deal like me, in that it will settle in the position that requires the least energy. This occurs only because it is free to move on the inside of the tire. So, it tends to the point furthest from the "bulge", thus contributing to balancing the structure.
That it is made of ceramic causes it to acquire electrostatic energy as well. For those of you who still have hair, you have seen, when you comb it in a very dry environment, how the hair is attracted to the comb after a few strokes. This is because the comb becomes charged, due to friction with your hair, with the opposite charge from that which remains in your hair. I have observed this electrostatic effect in the beads in a plastic bottle, or even in the plastic bag they were shipped in. Since all the beads have a like charge, and like charges repel, they tend to avoid one another. This keeps them from "clumping" together in the lowest energy part of the tire, unlike, say steel or lead shot. It also causes them to cling to the inside surface of the tire, which carries the opposite charge. The charge they can carry, and therefore the electrostatic force exerted on them, will be roughly independent of the size of the bead, so the small size causes them to cling tighter to the inside of the tire than a larger bead would.
Someone has speculated that the beads fall to the bottom of the tire when you stop. They may, but I think it may take awhile. No insulator is perfect, and the charge will leak off over time. So if the tire sits there long enough, they should fall to the bottom. I just don't know how long this may take. In a plastic drink bottle, they cling to the sides for days, at least.
Anyway, that's my theory, and I am sticking to it, at least until someone can point out the error of it.
QuoteAnyway, that's my theory, and I am sticking to it, at least until someone can point out the error of it.
Not pointing out any errors in your theory, heavens knows I would never challenge an engineer :D :D :D, So this is just a question for my clarity. If the tire being distended because the extra weight, causing it to become out of round and this causing the vibration, then how does a lead weight attached to the wheel keep the rubber from distending and becoming out of round which would still cause a vibration. If it could why wouldn't a wheel weight correct an out of round tire, which it won't. I was under the assumption that the vibration came from an unequal pull from the center of what ever was rotating, disrupting the harmony. Hence the need for a harmonic balancer on a crankshaft. Or weights on a flywheel, or drive shaft etc.. I realize I'm setting myself up for a thrashing, but oh well, it won't be the first time :D 8-)
I didn't make this point very clear as to what is cause and what is effect. If the system is out of balance for any reason, the tire will be distended. If the axle were perfectly fixed and immovable this would not happen unless the imbalance was due to the tire alone, but this is not the case, because of springs and, even if there were no springs, the finite weight of the vehicle. The distension of the tire is due to the imbalance in the system, and variations in the tire weight may not even be the principal cause. Nonetheless, the tire will distend in the direction of the heavier portion of the whole system -- tire, wheel, brake rotor or drum -- whatever turns can add to the imbalance.
I think Lance's point is that modern tires are pretty well balanced from the get-go, and imbalance in the rest of the system can be quite significant. I might venture a guess that the cast aluminum wheels on our bikes are better balanced than the stamped steel ones on most automobiles, but I have no facts to back up this conjecture.
It seems intuitive to me that the optimum approach would be to dynamic balance the entire system, sans tire, with weights, then mount the tire and insert beads. This way the beads are only compensating for the sins of the tire, and not having to act on the tire to correct imbalance in the non-tire components.
Someone stated that the beads would not work on a "wide" tire. I can see where, if the tire is wide enough, there may be lateral variations that cause a more complex vibration/shimmy. This one makes my head hurt, and I don't intend to try to deal with it... :lol: :lol:
QuoteIf the axle were perfectly fixed and immovable this would not happen unless the imbalance was due to the tire alone, but this is not the case, because of springs and, even if there were no springs, the finite weight of the vehicle.
IF this is the case how can a perfectly fixed and immoovable spin balancer compensate for these other variables? :?
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on December 05, 2009, 05:10:16 PM
QuoteIf the axle were perfectly fixed and immovable this would not happen unless the imbalance was due to the tire alone, but this is not the case, because of springs and, even if there were no springs, the finite weight of the vehicle.
IF this is the case how can a perfectly fixed and immoovable spin balancer compensate for these other variables? :?
I am not sure I know how a spin balancer works, as I have never used one. I have seen them used on a wheel and tire combination off the vehicle, and assumed that the machine was able to detect and measure the forces acting on the axle where the wheel is mounted, and calculate where to add weight and how much to add. I have no idea how it can compensate for imbalance in the rotor, axle, etc. that is left on the vehicle. Magic, I guess.
My point is that if the axle/wheel/rotor, etc. does not move, it cannot impart imbalance forces into the tire, and the tire will not distend due to imbalances that accrue to components other than the tire. So if you are correct and the spin balancer axle does not vibrate at all, then, according to my theory, the beads could not compensate for any imbalances except for those in the tire while on such a balancer.
I thought Lance was talking about a dynamic balancer that ran the system up to speed on the vehicle, so that all the imbalances were measured and compensated. In this case, won't the axle move due to the springs? It has been a very long time since I have seen this done, and it was accomplished with an electric motor that drove a wide "pulley" in contact with the tire. Are these still in use?
It still seems to me that the optimum arrangement would spin up the wheel, without the tire, while on the vehicle, and balance it with weights -- then add the tire and the beads. I have never seen a system that could accomplish this on the vehicle balancing act without the tire, so it is probably just a wild idea that will never be tested.
QuoteAre these still in use?
LOL man your showing our age :D I used one back in the late sixties until my boss upgraded to a used Coats spin balancer, I remember the ring you had to attach to the wheel and manually pull or push the button in the center until the tire stopped vibrating then place the weight where the pointer showed, thing used to scare me to death, it would occasionally come off and go flying across the room. It took both of us to balance the rear because someone had to sit in the car and spin the rear tire, try that with a standard :D. We also had a tire truing machine that would turn the tire while a spinning disc shaped blade cut the high spots down. Tires weren't as round back then I guess, I wonder if anyone still uses one of those. Might work on taking a little of the edge off car tires for the dark side. Anyway I didn't understand how the old balancer worked or the new or the beads :? mostly I just like jerking your chain a little :D :D :D :D 8)..
You trying to say your so old that tires were still square?????
Running back under my rock now so I can avoid the sharp object that will be flying my way hehehehehe.
QuoteYou trying to say your so old that tires were still square?????
lol, well they felt square if you let them set in one place to long, ask me how many fake white walls I installed on black wall tires. The quality and price of the tire depended a lot on whether it was a two ply or four ply.
It is my undocumented perception that the "out of round" tire problem was largely solved with the advent of radial belted tires. I still remember the first time I put Michelin steel belted radials on my '63 MG. What an amazing difference!!
Who remembers the Seventy series polyglas tires of the ninteen seventies? Cool tires, red stripes or raised white letters 8)..
I found this kinda interesting..
http://www.jags.org/TechInfo/2001/05May01/tires/historyoftires.htm
Thanks for the history link, Charles.
I worked at TI when we took a calculator chip and LED display to Burroughs (sp?), the dominant maker of desktop electro-mechanical calculators. They objected that there was no printer, so our guys came home to work the problem and in a few months came up with a semiconductor-based thermal printer, whereupon we went back to Burroughs. At the end of a long day, their CEO sat across the table, and said that yes, this was obviously a less expensive way to make calculators, but what was he going to do with this gigantic factory that made cams and gears and switches? Our sales guy did not have the courage to tell him the truth -- you are going to scrap it. You are going to scrap it because you choose to or because you are forced to, but you will scrap it.
A few months later, TI entered the calculator market, and in less than two years, Burroughs market share went to zilch, and they scrapped the factory.
It is amazing to me that the US auto/tire industry was able to resist the obviously superior technology for so long...
Found this place on-line - seems like a good price for a different named product...
BOWES (http://www.bowessealfast.com/c-118-counteract-balancing-beads.aspx)