Well, I have never had it happen until this weekend. I went to start the bike and it would not. If I held the starter it would act like it was hitting until I released the starter button. I pulled all plugs and grounded them all and I got fire from them. Put plugs back in and let it sit for an hour. Went inside and prepared to pull the carbs and when i came back outside decided to try one more time. I put my throttle at half, no choke, and hit the starter button. Pop,pop, pow. Hmm, something different. Tried again and she fired off, backfiring out of RIGHT side exhaust. Once running I kept her at around 3000 rpm and it finally cleaned itself up. :?
The only thing I can think is when I parked my bike last, it was on reserve. I am only about 3 miles from the nearest gas station and I had to switch over to reserve about 2 miles from the house. I just planned on filling up when I made my trip back to town. I'm wondering if the low level of fuel had something to do with plugging up the jets? Maybe some setimentation that normally wouldn't do anything until low fuel? The bike gets started every week and it didn't do this last week.
Thought I would share this info with everyone. What's you guys take on this??
Sounds like it's time for a few doses of SeaFoam...
Lance, I am going to venture a guess based on my experience in fueling and flying light aircraft. If it had been a while since you switched to reserve (several days or weeks of diurnal temperature shifts, especially in high humidity), then you had water in the fuel. The fuel pickup for reserve, is of course, lower in the tank. If you get water, it will flow through the reserve pick up before it gets to the regular pickup. You can have water accumulate over months if you never switch to reserve, and you won't know it until the reserve is activated.
Cure is to never leave the bike with much air in the tank. I always fill up at the nearest gas station to my home, so the tank is nearly completely full. That way there is not much "breathing room" for the system to inhale and condense water. The inclusion of ethanol in the fuel supply in major cities has, in my view, one big advantage, and that is it will absorb water and feed it through the engine in a very small, continuous stream, mixed with the gasoline. In this manner it is virtually harmless.
Back on the farm, we would add a little ethanol to the fuel tanks whenever our equipment had been sitting for more than a month, precisely to alleviate this problem.
May not be the issue, but it sounds to me like this is it. I doubt your low speed jets are clogged, unless the bike has been sitting for a very long time.
Quote from: lragan on December 07, 2009, 02:38:30 PM
Lance, I am going to venture a guess based on my experience in fueling and flying light aircraft. If it had been a while since you switched to reserve (several days or weeks of diurnal temperature shifts, especially in high humidity), then you had water in the fuel.
If this is true, then should he try to drain the bottom of the bowls of the carbs to make sure there is no water sitting there?? Just a thought.
Quote from: hootmon on December 07, 2009, 03:58:15 PM
If this is true, then should he try to drain the bottom of the bowls of the carbs to make sure there is no water sitting there?? Just a thought.
If it were my bike, I would take this step. Not that tedious. I would catch the drained stuff and inspect for particles, particularly of rust. :shock: I would also look to fill up, if feasible, with a 10% ethanol gasoline. :cool:
Thanks for the replies everyone. When I got home it started right up yesterday from work. I don't know but I'm gonna guess that it was water. Does seafoam disperse water or do I need to look at something different?
Quote from: L J MAGNA on December 08, 2009, 08:44:39 AM
Does seafoam disperse water or do I need to look at something different?
Per the bottle:
cleans injectors
cleans Carb Jets
Fuel Stabilizer
dries fuels and oilfrees lifters - rings
carbon cleaner
upper cylinder lube
de-icer anti gel
One important thing I did fail to mention is that I did have Stabil in that tank of gas.
I also had stabil in my tank of gas, but I am going to have to pull the carbs and clean the jets. Now granted mine has been parked since March, but according to them this should not happen.
What typically happens with slow speed jets, in your situation, that you have cleared some out and with the engine heat it helps out. IF you let it sit then it will compound the situation.
SEAFOAM, OR pull and clean them hehehehe.
I have to pull mine off and clean them too. Mine hadn't been run for 3 months (July-Sept) while I had a hip replaced. Before I went under the grinder, I had fueled up and put a double dose of Seafoam in, then ran it for 10 miles or so to work it through. I then drained the carbs. Figured this would be good enough since we're only talking about storing it over the summer months.
Started it up in Sept, and it started right up, nice. Went for a ride, (after 3 months without, felt really good!) but it didn't feel quite right. Figured it was just a little clogged up. I ran that tank and 2 more tanks through with a double dose, but it's still not quite right. It's stumbling at about 5k (have 105 jets and the extra shim) and hates to start when even close to cold.
I'm going to open mine up sometime soon and swab the decks out.
Rod.
I lucked out on mine I guess. I'm still not convinced though that it was pilot jets plugged up. I think it could have been water in my gas. I added some heet to the tank yesterday and let it run.
On the subject of pulling and cleaning carbs, for those of you that know my cousin Ron in Celina, Ron was having trouble with idling and taking off, so I pulled his carbs yesterday, he has Vance and Hines exhaust and a K&N filter. I got to tell you they had to be some of the dirtiest carbs I ever pulled the bowls were full of a fine silt and there were pieces of what appeared to be little pieces of pink looking foam about the size of a pencil eraser. I picked them out and when I touched them they turned to a greasy gritty sticky goo (sorry don't know how else to describe it). The idle jets are stopped up and I don't see how the bike was running. The K&N filter was heavy with oil and the oily residue was very sticky. I run K&N filters on cars with excellent results, is this normal for K&N on motorcycles? Can too much oil be used or the wrong kind? It might be a lot of trouble but if I ever change a filter and it's very dirty I'm going to clean the carbs before I waste money on another filter and definitely going to check the fuel for trash. I'll post some pics if i can get a close enough shot of the trash in the carbs. Anyone run into this gummy kind of mess?
This is good info Charles. I haven't ever had that in my carbs, not saying it's not there now though. Sounds like the k/n filter he has either had too much oil put on it from the factory, or someone put too much oil on it. I do have a k/n filter as well. I will say though if I had it all to do over again, I wouldn't of discarded my stock filter when I put in my k/n. The k/n flows so much air that it is hard to get the jetting exact. :)
I posted on another board last week about what i think hppens with the K&n filter. don't know for sure if i am right, it's just my take in it after messing with the jetting on my bike. about the discussion, someone thought this person's problem was clogged main jets. He had a stock bike with a k&n air filter. about the stuff in the carbs that was found: it could have been the secondary air cleaner element, which can and does break up and get sucked into the carbs. i would look to see if there is still a filter in there. it is located on the left side of the bike, under the chrome plastic cover under the tank. it will be in a little black box with a hose attached to it.
17264.5 in reply to 17264.3
It's not a clogged main jet. it's the pilots. For the people that have had problems with just upgrading to a K&n filter, it's most likely the pilot jet size. My theroy on it is the k&n filter not only flows better at high rpm's, it also upsets the the 'balance' or the pulses of the carbs from the 90-270-90-270 timing, and is a little leaner because of it. One carb plays off the pulse of another.
the paper filter probably has more restriction at lower rpms and a little more back pressure to stabilize the pulses. just try to start or idle your bike without the air filter on it. it is almost impossible to even get it started. I had the same problems with my bike, but i wanted to track it down and fix it, spent a lot of time on figuring out and theorizing what was happening. as soon as i added the bigger pilots, things started picking up. at the same time I added 108 mains, and tried various settings of the air/fuel mixture 'd' screws. I'm pretty sure that the pilots did the trick for off the line performance from a dead stop to WFO. if it hiccups aroundd 5-7k then i'd add a shim on each needle, and if it seems a little lean up top, go with 105 or 108 mains depending on where you are located (elevation) These are just my thoughts based on what I experienced when tuning my bike on the butt dyno from the last few years.
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QuoteSounds like the k/n filter he has either had too much oil put on it from the factory, or someone put too much oil on it
this would not explain how it got into the bowls. A filter with too much oil might foul your plugs, but I cannot see how it would affect the carbs themselves.
Quotethis would not explain how it got into the bowls. A filter with too much oil might foul your plugs, but I cannot see how it would affect the carbs themselves.
The dirt, silt and trash in the bowl obviously came from the gas supply, the sticky gummy residue in the venturi came from the air supply.
Been there seen that. The filter is known to do that and have seen many gone and the residue in the carbs..
Quote from: roboto65 on December 12, 2009, 04:45:04 AM
Been there seen that. The filter is known to do that and have seen many gone and the residue in the carbs..
I have K&N filters in both my Magnas. So is their assertion that they are "lifetime" filters just BS? And what is this about oil? I didn't see any instructions to oil them, so I just installed them. Is maintenance/attention to these K&N air filters called for that I am not performing?
Or are you talking of the foam filter at the left side in the tiny holder?
No I was referring to the foam filter on the side of the bike. And yeah K&N does require maintence but every 50000 miles some do it more some less all that is done is washing and reoiling and put back on the bike.
The issue is alot of people tend to over oil them and well oil does not burn very well and clogs things up... :shock:
A brand new K&N comes oiled and ready to go. It will be a nice shade of red. As it starts to turn sort of a brown color you need to clean it and re-oil. supposedly if you do that properly the filter lasts forever.
i know this has been discussed before but here's my 2 cents;
i'm one of the guys who have a k&n horror story. i spent several years hauling cattle in an 05 dodge (cummins)- 95% off hiway. The paper filter would last 2-3 weeks before popping the restriction indicator (very dirty conditions). i installed k&n; it would go 2.5 months. i carried a spare already cleaned and oiled- ready to go when indicator popped. I thought problem solved (stupid- i realize now). engine had to be overhauled @ 20k miles. Dealership service manager (i knew him well) called- said he had installed a paper filter on my truck because warranty would not cover damage from k&n. He said he had done several that month. The cylinder walls were badly grooved from the dirt. I realize now that all that dirt that the paper had caught was going into the engine. Of course unless you are riding moto-cross you will never see those conditions- but i will never run a k&n on anything again. i will pay for dirt removal up front.
And off the soap box i step!
Quote from: lancer on December 12, 2009, 09:46:03 AM
i know this has been discussed before but here's my 2 cents;
i'm one of the guys who have a k&n horror story. i spent several years hauling cattle in an 05 dodge (cummins)- 95% off hiway. The paper filter would last 2-3 weeks before popping the restriction indicator (very dirty conditions). i installed k&n; it would go 2.5 months. i carried a spare already cleaned and oiled- ready to go when indicator popped. I thought problem solved (stupid- i realize now). engine had to be overhauled @ 20k miles. Dealership service manager (i knew him well) called- said he had installed a paper filter on my truck because warranty would not cover damage from k&n. He said he had done several that month. The cylinder walls were badly grooved from the dirt. I realize now that all that dirt that the paper had caught was going into the engine. Of course unless you are riding moto-cross you will never see those conditions- but i will never run a k&n on anything again. i will pay for dirt removal up front.
And off the soap box i step!
I think this is a valid point, I have read others with your same experience over time in a fleet situation.
I beleive it too. I have always felt there HAD to be some kind of tradeoff for better flow.
I sure would not run one in a known dusty/sandy environment for sure.
Here are a few picks of the carb I just cleaned.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/027-3.jpg
Notice the gummy looking stain the the air intake, it was like that all the way thru the venturi.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/023.jpg
All the bowls looked about the same.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/029.jpg
I used a clear carb spray, this stain all came from just the venturi.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/032-1.jpg
A little harder to see but this trash came from inside the bowls.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/036-1.jpg
I know I sometimes have trouble finding the right size wire to clean the idle jets, (these are 40's) the wire came from a bread wrapper tie wire, I stripped back the paper and it was a perfect fit. I have no idea that all wrapper tie are the same size but if your having trouble, might be an option.
We will be cleaning and checking the tank before reassemble.
Ron's bike has a K&N filter, Vance & Hines exhaust, the carbs had 40 idle jets, 105 mains and two shims and since it ran extremely well at one time I assumed the air adj were ok and just opted to leave the rest alone. I'm sure some of you know the bike, Custom Blue with Black racing stripe, lots of chrome, belonged to one of the Moot members. I'm not sure but Ron may have actually purchased it from a dealer.
Ok the stains you are seeing there I am pretty sure are oil which is oil from the crankcase off the back of the head is just blowby and settles in the top of the airbox after a hard days running !!! Just natural engine biproduct :cool:
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on December 20, 2009, 11:46:25 PM
I know I sometimes have trouble finding the right size wire to clean the idle jets, (these are 40's) the wire came from a bread wrapper tie wire, I stripped back the paper and it was a perfect fit. I have no idea that all wrapper tie are the same size but if your having trouble, might be an option.
I worked one summer in a steel mill, where they pulled a lot of wire. Wire is pulled through a die until the die wears enough that they can use it for the next larger size. So a "size 40" wire may actually be as large as the next die in their inventory, probably a "39". Recommend you put a micrometer on it before stuffing it through your jets...
QuoteOk the stains you are seeing there I am pretty sure are oil which is oil from the crankcase off the back of the head is just blowby and settles in the top of the airbox after a hard days running !!! Just natural engine biproduct
There wasn't a drop of oil in the box, I know what that looks like.
Quote[Recommend you put a micrometer on it before stuffing it through your jets
Not everyone has a nice set of Starrett micrometers laying around their shop. No more risky than using a strand of electrical wire used by several on here. I trust my judgement, but I guess I should retract my statement or reword it to say, use at your own risk.
How about oil vapor out of the crankcase from the hose in the back on the filter box I have seen some with oil on top and that is normal blowby we did Jesses the last time I was off and his were way dirtier :lol: those look clean on top but the bowl had some gunk in it for sure!! Anyway thats what was in the venturi just oily residue from the crankcase.. Sure she is running like a top now 8) 8)
Well, not just yet, the bike is in Celina and the Carbs are in Texarkana :D. It should run better two of the four idle jets were completely stopped up and two were almost.
Well she will be up and running soon then Good !!!! Charles think BASSBOAT sparkle hint hint LOL :-D
I was thinking more in the line of roll cage :D :D :D..
Hahahahahahahah you are probably CORRECT LOL
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on December 21, 2009, 10:40:09 AM
I was thinking more in the line of roll cage :D :D :D..
Nice Charles..... :lol: