Magna Owners Of Texas

Hello all
Brand new to MOOT, thanks for having me!

Here's my FaceBook link on some pics I took along the way http://www.facebook.com/album.php?id=100001626460204&aid=27831

Wondering if I could get some insight on a couple troubles I'm having with my bike.  I bought a 1986 V65 Magna and got right to work on pulling the bike apart and cleaning it up then building it back up to make it "my" bike.  So far, I've built all new fenders, forward controls, and handle bars.  Slapped on a $50 Rustoleum paint job.  new battery, NGK plugs, K&N air filter, all new fluids, replaced the fork seals, new custom headlight set, built and reapholstered the seat, and built a custom sissy bar.  I also installed a stock set of exhaust and yanked all the mess of vacuum lines off and installed a freshly rebuilt set of Non-Cali carbs.  I plugged the #3 jug vacuum port and replaced all the fuel lines.  When I started the bike up, the idle will not drop bellow 2k rpm.  I have loosened the pull side of the throttle line to the point where I could even remove it and it still idles high.  It's almost like the bar that runs that butterfly is not able to roll back enough to let down the idle.  Aside from that, I got the bike on the roads around base, no more than 35mph and it runs pretty strong!  Hesitates on the jump a bit but pulls hard when it grunts through it.  After about 20 minutes i went ahead and hit the highway.  The on ramp launch was quite a thrill!  Problem is, after only two miles or so it started to just peter out like it was running out of gas.  I coasted to an idle and let it sit for about five minutes.  I shot out on the highway again like I was shooting off the pointy end of an aircraft carrier (such fun!) but bogged to a halt after yet another two miles or so.  Thus was the repeating behavior of the bike without a change.  I tried opening the gas cap in case of a vacuum lock to the carbs, but no fix.  I have recently changed the fuel relay, no fix.  High test gas to low test all with a healthy dose of SeaFoam... no change.  I now have a new 1983 Honda Civic 1.3 liter fuel pump in the mail which appears to be a direct replacement for the stock pump.  In the mean time, I've checked all the wiring from the front fuse box to the spark boxes on the back.  I've checked the continuity on the pule generators, checked the coils and plug wires, checked the spark boxes themselves and even jumpered the fuel pump.  Everything seems to check out in good working order, but the bike acts otherwise. 

Any advise on the bogging down problem and the high idle problem would be much appreciated.  I cannot wait to get my knees in the breeze on this rocket!

ToolBoxPop..

(http://i52.tinypic.com/20hq79c.jpg)

You have done some nice work in your laundry room  :-P

I'm not sure about your issues, but it looks like you have done a lot of work to get the bike the way you like it.. I'm sure some V-65 folks will chime in on possible causes of your power loss, seems like you have checked a lot of the possible causes... Might be something you overlooked from the Cali conversion.

Quite a collection of bikes you have there..

You mentioned "on Base", so I see you are in the service and stationed in Cali.. I was raised in SackOfTomatoes.

(http://i37.tinypic.com/oau8p1.jpg)

QuoteI have loosened the pull side of the throttle line to the point where I could even remove it and it still idles high.

What about the idle screw itself?  No matter how much you loosen the cable if that is set to high it cannot return past that point.

QuoteProblem is, after only two miles or so it started to just peter out like it was running out of gas.  I coasted to an idle and let it sit for about five minutes.

It never died, just lost power?  Can you see the fuel filter when this occurs and verify it has fuel in it?  Sounds sort of like the carbs are running out of fuel under high throttle.  Maybe verify the floats are set correctly as well.

Lol, Hootman, "SacofTomatoes"  is a great name for Sacramento.  Thanks for the compliments!  That was my first attempt at remaking a seat.

DG, thanks for the input!  I should have metnioned that in my first post.  That big chunky idle screw under the carb is what I messed with first.  I can twist that idle adjustment screw all the way till it wants to come out the bottom, but nothing.  I took the carbs off and examined everything.  I closed the butterflies on the other three carbs that are not connected to that first one in hopes to let a little less air pass through, and it let the idle come down to about 1800, but now at a rest those butterflies are essentially completely shut.  The carb that is effected by the idle adjustment looks like that spring may be too tight or something because I can wrench on the throttle in the reverse direction and it will force that linkage closed to sit on the actual idle adjustment stop, which brings down the rpm to the set amount, but only when I pull backwards on the throttle pretty hard.   Ugh, I'm so confused with it lol. 

These carbs have some small springs that go in between where they interact with each other.  All 4 carbs should be affected when you adjust the idle screw.  Hard to explain, but are those springs there?  They are what keeps the linkage between the carbs tight and in sync.  If they are there doing a carb sync might help.
Of course none of this addresses the lost power issue.

Is there a forum on here that might spell out how to do a carb sync on the old V65?  That's something I haven't done before.

so the springs are there?  I assure you that can be an issue.  if the springs are not there holding the linkage in place it allows about 1/4 inch or so of travel and the vacuum from the engine will open the butterflies.  The springs can pop out really easy when putting the carbs back on the bike.

Here is a pic of my carbs, I think it shows the springs you are talking about.  From what I can tell, the idle adjustment only works the one butterfly it is attatched to when I spin it in and out.  It seems like the other three are free from the idle adjust, but all work together when the throttle is pulled.  Is the carb sync you were talking about able to be done with them on the bike or do you have to remove them?  Because it is a bear to get these things back in the bike lol.

Well if the carbs are off the bike. Oh and welcome to the forum  :grin: :grin: any where was I. I get lost easy anyhoo you can bench sync the carbs right there find you self 2 1/8 inch drill bits or whatever but I use 1/8 inch anyhow one of the carbs is not adjustable as in no srcew find that one and open the butterflies and insert one of the drill bits and let the butterflies close again on the bit.

The other drill bit you are going to use as a feeler gauge so to speak try to insert it as flat as possible thru the butterflies and adjust the screws accordingly to allow a slight drag on all the other butterflies and wala your Bench sycn is done that should put you close enough that you should be good to go with out having to sync them while running but you can if you like..

Oh and from the pics it looks like pic number 3 shows that the upper right carb is the base carb as in no screw to adjust..

Thanks roboto65!  From what I can tell, all of the carbs are basically closing completely with no throttle pull.  Are you saying there should be a 1/8 gap when at rest?  If that's the case then I am way off with mine lol.  Unfortunately I have them on the bike right now.  I think I'm more afraid of taking the upper airbox top on and off then the carbs, that thing was horribly tough to remove and replace lol.  The upper right carb in that 3rd pic is actually adjusted by the screw next to the upper left one.  It's the upper left that only has the idle adjustment screw to it.  Right now as they sit, they are adjusted to be completely closed with no throttle tension.  Do I need to just bite the bullet and remove them again to do the 1/8 gap?

No No they should close fully we are just making sure they close and open together by using the same size bit and making them close..

oh, I'm sorry lol, I understand now.  I just re-read the post again.  Before I installed them I did make sure they were all exactly in the same spot at rest, and that they opened and closed simotaniously.  What confuses me is that at the full rest position, the carb that is adjusted by the idle screw stays open a little bit.   What really frusterates me is there is a big spring on the bar that the butterfly is mounted to, then reaches over to where the idle screw is.  I didn't see any way to roll that bar back or take the tension off of that spring to allow the butterfly to be more closed at a rest.

I do see one of the springs in the first pic.

I haven't fixed the high idle problem yet, but it appears that, even though it's quite a bit bigger in physical size, a fuel pump from a 1983 honda civic 1.3 (a 1986 honda prelude 1.8 also) does infact work as a replacement for the OEM pump.  I bought it from Oreilly's for 65 bucks.  The bike seems to love it in there so far.  I think it fixed the bogging down problem I was having.  Now I just can't figure out why I cannot roll that dang idle down without having to wrench backwards on the throttle.

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on March 11, 2011, 05:17:21 PM
Now I just can't figure out why I cannot roll that dang idle down without having to wrench backwards on the throttle.

Are they old cables?? You may have some rust in them IF so..

The only thing I can think of is. Check and see if the end of the throttle cable might have slipped in the holder.

I might try to score a new set of cables just to elliminate that possibility.  You may very well be right though.

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on March 11, 2011, 10:29:40 PM
I might try to score a new set of cables just to elliminate that possibility.  You may very well be right though.

Just disconnect each end and slide the cable back and forth, it should slide freely.. Also try sliding it with the bends in it as it is in the motorcycle (IF you take the cable out) It might be worn at the bend and you might not be able to detect it if the cable is straight.

Thanks again for more ideas.  I went ahead and pulled both cables lose from the carbs, and worked them in and out while spraying some VVL(spray lube we use in the navy) in the top end untill it came out the bottom.  Took a while but the oil came out surprisingly clean at the bottom end.  the cables move very smooth even in their bent positions as they are on the bike.  I noticed that with the cables completely unattatched, the bike still idles at like 2500.  Is that return line supposed to be able to put enough pressure backwards on the throttle connection to lower that rpm, or is this a good sign that something on the carb is either installed or adjusted incorrectly?

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on March 12, 2011, 11:58:51 AM
Is that return line supposed to be able to put enough pressure backwards on the throttle connection to lower that rpm, or is this a good sign that something on the carb is either installed or adjusted incorrectly?

There is a spring that is supposed to return the carbs to idle, it should NOT be a function of the cables.

As much as I hate to say it you need to take the carbs off again and check the butterflies well before you do that do you have some starting fluid around somewhere while she is running spray some around the boots and base you may also have an air leak somewhere. Check for that before taking the carbs off again.

Quotehe is running spray some around the boots and base you may also have an air leak somewhere. Check for that before taking the carbs off again.

VERY good idea.  totally forget that could cause a high idle.

Well, I took the dang carbs back out and checked it all out.  Of course they were way out of sync lol.  I got them all tuned in and then inspected everything again.  The intake boots inside the carbs look brand new as well as the intake boots to the cylinders.  Everything looks good.  I set the pilot screws to 2 1/2 turns out and went from there.  Once they were back in, the rpm was where it should be and the bike seemed to idle really nice.  I test drove it on the neighborhood streets and it's really hesitating then releasing all at once on take off.  On the highway it acted like it was underpowered.  There is now a very "airy" backfire out of the exhaust when I roll off the throttle without pulling the clutch.  When I got it back to the house I noticed that the front left cylinder is barely warm while all others are hot like normal.  This cylinder didn't have this problem before.   It has spark to it and I'm pretty sure the carb is putting fuel to it.  Any idea on what would make it all the sudden go out?

Today on the way to work, even in the heavy wind, I could smell gas the whole ride in.  I noticed once I got to work and parked it that fuel was leaking pretty heavily from the left front carb, dripping down the bowl.  After festering on it all day when I was supposed to be thinking of my job lol I anxiously got it home to get a look at it.  I pulled the spark plug and cranked it over with the kill switch to off to see if it would shoot out a bundle of residual fuel and it didnt(thinking that maybe the cylinder was just filling up with gas and pushing it out the intake or something).  The plug looks brownish tan and dryer than a popcorn fart.  No oil either. I turned the switch to on and fired it up with the plug still out and the bike ran like it has been for the past couple days.  So now i'm thinking that since the spark is good and it sounds like the compression is strong with no oil in the cylinder that somehow the fuel is making it to the carbs but not out of that carb.  The other three are fine.  All the jets are new with freshly cleaned tanks/filter and good gas.  Not sure what could cause the carb to overflow with gas but not let it shoot into the cylinder.

If you have new jets, and are sure the carb bowl is filling, it is hard to imagine how the gas is not getting to the cylinder.  I suspect a stuck valve.  Do you have access to a compression gage?  

If you take the plug out, hold a finger or thumb over the plug hole (not down in the hole in case I am wrong!!), leave the kill switch in "kill" position, and turn the engine over, can you feel the cylinder huffing and puffing (inhaling and exhaling)?  Compare what you feel on this cylinder with one that is firing (for reference).  Not as good as a compression gage, but may give you a clue.

Quote from: lragan on March 16, 2011, 10:20:03 PM
 I suspect a stuck valve.  

I'm not sure a stuck valve would make the carb leak fuel though. I think there is still something going on with that particular carb..

Thanks again for the feedback.  That front left cylinder is only putting out 90 psi when the book says it should be throwing 184 +- 24.  I guess it really could be a stuck valve, just kinda a mystery on why it's a stuck valve all of the sudden.  Either way, I've never adjusted valves on a motorcycle before let alone an overhead cam set up, so maybe I should just take it in(as much as I hate doing that).  Thanks so much for the input hootmon and Iragan!

Did you add a little oil or was the compression test dry. If dry add a little oil to the cylinder and if the compression stays the same then yeah it is a valve if it goes up it is the rings.

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on March 16, 2011, 11:52:36 PM
That front left cylinder is only putting out 90 psi when the book says it should be throwing 184 +- 24.  ...

You did check the compression on at least one of the good cylinders, didn't you?  Just as a check on your measurement and my conjecture...

the other three cylinders were around 160-170 psi and the left front was only 90.  I put a splash of oil in each one I tested.  I'm curious though, in order for the valves to be not shutting does that mean the timing has jumped off track?  In either instance, whether the valves are just out of alignment or the timing is off, is it possible that changing carbs can cause that?  Or maybe the backfires it was doing threw it off?  I get confused about the mechanics of how valves and/or timing actually get thrown off.

All the valves actions are caused by the rotation of the cams. The cam(s) are all chained together and driven off the crankshaft.
So, the timing being off on one cylinder is likely not to happen.. More apt to be things like a weak or broken return spring, valve bent, excessive build up of carbon on the valve preventing it from sliding through the valve guide, etc..

I'd wait for other responses, but it sounds like you are going to have to at least pull the valve cover and see what you can see is happening with the valves for that cylinder.. IF it's a broken spring, you might be able to replace it, If it is something with the valve itself, the head will likely have to be removed.

You actions with the carbs shouldn't have had anything to do with this.. More likely coincidence

Hootmon, thanks for clearing that up!  I'm getting ready to pull the radiator off and start digging into the front valve cover.  Funny how all of this trouble I'm having started with a simple fuel shut off relay.  Then suddenly all the other parts wanted the attention lol.  I know the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it sure does suck when I have so many squeaky wheels on one bike.

Well, I got the valve covers off and I was hoping to find the left front valves just way out of wack or a broken spring or something that would justify the problems i've been having.  It's not what I found though.  Everything is so clean and brand new looking.  The rocker arms, lobes, tops of the valves and springs all look pristine.  The valves on the left front cylinder were, though, the only valves that were barely tight.  And I mean BARELY tight.  The book calls for .006 and they were at like .004 - .005.  Could these motors be that touchy do you think?

The other thing is, I've had the fuel turned to off on the aux tank all night.  There is still fuel dripping out about 1 drip every four seconds out of the carbs.  It appears that it is coming out of the upper inside of the left front carb at the bowl gasket and running down and dripping off of the rubber intake boot right down onto that hard tube going into the crankcase.  Now with the plugs out, valve covers off and the fuel shut to off I'm once again baffled about this leak.  I just want to ENJOY THIS BIKE lol.

Toolbox, I sense your frustration.  Wish I could be there to help, but that dog won't hunt.

I have never worked on the first gen Magnas, but, on one of my '96 models, moving the fuel valve to "off" (as opposed to "run" or "reserve") still leaves gasoline coming out of the tank.  When I take the tank off to get to the top of the engine, I have to stand it on its' nose to prevent all the fuel from running out on the floor.  In fewer words, the valve doesn't work right.  I live with it.  You may or may not have a similar issue, I don't know.

I presume when you turn the engine over, you can see the valves on your inoperative cylinder moving freely in the guides?  Springs seated properly?  As for valve clearance, if the book calls for .006 and you only have 2/3 that amount, those valves may not be closing tight enough to allow full compression.  I would certainly reset them, then check the compression again.  Depending on how long the engine has run in this condition, you may have burned a valve and/or seat.  Not what you want to read, I am sure.  Here's hoping...

Iragan, I think you may have hit the nail on the head I'm afraid.  I just reset all the valves and put the bike back together.  I found out that the fuel leak is something totally random.  It's coming from the #2 carb where the fuel rail feeds the #4 carb, ugh.  Everything moves really well under the valve cover and I was really hoping for a big difference after resetting the valves.  I went ahead and only connected the #2 spark plug wire (the problem cylinder) and left the other wires hanging.  I cranked the bike over and it spit and sputtered, trying to only run  on one cylinder.  So I know that it's getting fuel, and enough compression to actually light off.  I thought that was a good sign.  I connected everything up and took it for a little spin.  The thing can pull it's front tire straight off the ground while it's peeling out, but on decel it backfires and revs high a little out of control.  It still hesitates on normal takeoffs.  I let it idle for about another 10 minutes and then checked the exhaust pipe temps.  #1,3,4 all hang out around 240 deg.  but the dang #2 is only 115.  So I think you may be right with the burnt valve theory.  Maybe a piece of one of the #2 valves has been ate up to the point where it's not sealing all the way shut.  What a bummer.

On the other hand, I'm thoroughly impressed with the ridiculous power this bike has only hitting on 3 cylinders.  I just simply cannot wait to get it running right and feel how powerful it is then.  I'll be anxious to hit that 10 sec. 1/4 mile!  Like Iragan said, "Here's hoping..."

What is the new compression reading on the cylinders since you did the valkve adjsutments?? 

The fuel rail running from one side to the other has o-rings and probably needs to be replaced..

I was borrowing a compression gauge from a friend, and I had to return it, so, now that I need it most, I dont have one.  I was just looking at the manual and it looks like there are only 4 valves all together?  If the front two cylinders share valves, then wouldn't a burnt valve effect both sides and not just the left... ?

I've been looking at the shop manual, and I've realized that there are 4 valves per cylinder lol.  The picture they have only shows two per head.  I was really confused for a minute:P

QuoteIt's coming from the #2 carb where the fuel rail feeds the #4 carb, ug

sounds like an '0' ring on the tube.  Easy fix other than having to pull the carbs yet again.  be really careful with those tubes they are irreplaceable and crack easy due to age making them brittle.

Quoteave never worked on the first gen Magnas, but, on one of my '96 models, moving the fuel valve to "off" (as opposed to "run" or "reserve") still leaves gasoline coming out of the tank. 

Since the first gen bikes have fuel pumps this is not an issue, in fact turning the fuel off is really only needed if you are removing a fuel line between the aux. tank and the fuel pump.

It sucks and is a blessing that these things are happening.  Better that you discovered it now than later when things could be worse off.
Sounds like you are doing a good job and getting where you need to be!

As a side conversation (not helpful to ToolBox)..

Even IF the valve gap was .001, that would mean that the valve is seating as far as it will seat, correct??

Adjusting from .003 to .006 should not make any difference on compression, at least at slow starter turnover speed..

Whether you have .001 or .100 gap the valve is as fully seated as it is going to get..
Am I missing something in this thought process???

Hootmon, I agree with what you're saying.  Any gap at all at Top Dead Center between the rocker and the top of the valve means that the spring has pulled the valve all the way up closing it off inside the cylinder.   If it's a burnt up valve tho like Iragan had mentioned, even pulled all the way up, the valve may still be allowing compression to escape through a damaged portion.  At times, I wish I had one of those clear plastic working motor models to watch every little piece as it moves when the motor rotates lol. 

DG, Ya I suppose it's better for these little gremlins to show their ugly faces while it's still here in the driveway than out on a long trip far from home, but it sure is frusterating nontheless.  I've heard so many people brag about the amount fun a V65 is, and I just haven't been able to reach that point yet, grr.

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on March 17, 2011, 08:55:44 PM
Hootmon,  At times, I wish I had one of those clear plastic working motor models to watch every little piece as it moves when the motor rotates lol. 

Thru the miracle of the internet.. Video (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine1.htm)

Quote from: hootmon on March 17, 2011, 07:48:54 PM
As a side conversation (not helpful to ToolBox)..

Even IF the valve gap was .001, that would mean that the valve is seating as far as it will seat, correct??

Adjusting from .003 to .006 should not make any difference on compression, at least at slow starter turnover speed..

Whether you have .001 or .100 gap the valve is as fully seated as it is going to get..
Am I missing something in this thought process???

Hoot, you are right, at low speeds it should not make a difference -- if the valve seat is perfect, the valve is perfect, the guides aren't worn so it seats all the way around, etc.  Since this never happens, the clearance will make a difference at some level -- I don't know if it is .001, or .0001, or .003.  Depends on initial tolerance, wear, etc.  Certainly at speed it will make a difference, due to the dynamics of the metals and the gasses.

Quote from: lragan on March 18, 2011, 12:55:05 PM

I don't know if it is .001, or .0001, or .003.  Depends on initial tolerance, wear, etc.  Certainly at speed it will make a difference, due to the dynamics of the metals and the gasses.

And Valve float due to lack of Spring tension.. 

I'm thinking of taking the front head off and checking it all out.  Pretty big task that makes me more nervous about putting it back together than pulling it apart lol.  While It's off it will give me a chance to fix that fuel tube and o-rings on the carburetor. 

If anyone has any idea where to find the valves for the V65 I'd appreciate it?  I've tried BikeBandit, and CheapCycles, and EBAY motors.  I've also called the largest motorcycle junk yard in California right here in Fresno (APF) and not even they have any valves for the V65.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-V65-Sabre-Cylinder-Head-Exhaust-Valves-Springs-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ390233057601QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Try that not any new one I found yet but the search continues  :cool:

Thanks for looking Robo!  I just found a pretty decent front head with the valve train still all attatched on EBAY for like 50 bucks including shipping off of an 84 magna.  There are a few options there as far as used goes.  I just wonder if a used set up will have the same outcome mine had, but if that's all there is to get then I'll have no choice but to go the used rout lol.  Thanks again for helping out!

Well until you get the head off you really do not know what you need but extra parts never hurt either well except the wallet LOL

Well, I got it all apart in about 3.5 hours, and OF COARSE there is no obvious problem.  I did notice a 1" piece of the airbox gasket missing, most likely making a bit of a vacuum leak in the intake manifold.  The fuel leak in the carbs is coming from the middle fuel pipe joining the #2 to the #4 carb.  Other than that, there is no bent or burned valves.  The springs all return the valves to full close, there is a tiny bit of scoring on the #2 outboard camshaft retainer grove and some obvious carbon build up in the #2 head from not firing correctly.  So if the mechanics of the head assembly is all pretty good, then the problem must be in the carbs.  The #2 cylinder is shiny and clean with no oil whatsoever so I don't think its the rings.  Could the fuel leak be preventing enough fuel from getting to that specific carb and cylinder I wonder?

ToolBoxPop

Man, you are living up to your name!!! I don't know how familiar you are with this type of work, but I won't say I wouldn't do what you did, but I probably wouldn't calm enough to take pictures and type!!!

Good Job so far..

I'd probably take the head down to a "Head Shop" and see if they could Magna Flux it (Or whatever they do today) to check it out for cracks, etc.. They may be able to see/identify something you can not..

Be glad it was the FRONT head.  So, then why the heck was the compression down on that cylinder?  hmmm...

QuoteI did notice a 1" piece of the airbox gasket missing

I am going to say that that is your hesitation problem right there any airleaks at the airbox will cause you grief it does not take into account the fuel problem but I bet you fix the fuel leak and gasket and she will be back to her mean self  8) 8)

Quote from: roboto65 on March 19, 2011, 08:55:49 AM

QuoteI did notice a 1" piece of the airbox gasket missing

I am going to say that that is your hesitation problem right there any airleaks at the airbox will cause you grief it does not take into account the fuel problem but I bet you fix the fuel leak and gasket and she will be back to her mean self  8) 8)

I am still at a loss to understand why this would reduce the measured compression, Alan.  Can you please explain?

Hootmon, I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing lol.  This is the first time I've ever tore into a motorcycle engine, but typically if I see it come apart, I understand how it goes together... for the most part!

Robo, I agree with that airbox leak being my hesitation problem.  I told my wife I was glad to see that gap in the gasket and also there was a small crack in the airbox itself because that at least explains the hesitation and wierd idle I would have coming off of the throttle at times.

Iragan, I'm sharing your confusion still.  I have no idea now what could have been causing the compression to be cut in half compared to the other cylinders.  That carbon build up on the valves and #2 piston show me that it's not burning efficiently though.  Do you think that a vacuum leak up top could cause the #2 carb to act funny and somehow allow the intake valves to vacuum lock open or something, allowing the exhaust stroke compression to escape... Lord I don't know lol.  The head gasket looks pretty petrified but I dont see any exhaust marks on it like it was escaping through the gasket. 

I think I'll take it to a local shop and at least have them lay eyes on it.  I have to just be missing something.  Thanks for the input guys!

Maybe a weak valve spring???  If you have it this far apart might as well go the rest and replace all gaskets, seals, etc etc. 

Explanation is that I was talking about the hesitation he had when running I did not explain the compression loss anywhere as this has nothing to do with the hesitation heck it might be a stuck or broke ring hate to say that but maybe if the head checks out.

Robo, I didn't mean to confuse all the comments together, I'm just plain ol confused about the compression problem myself.  That's all I meant, I didn't mean to imply that I was confused with anything you had written.  I did press on the valve springs a bit and they all seemed to be equally as strong.  The rings are certainly a suspect... I just really hope not lol.

Oh no it was not meant for you  it was meant for Lawrence.  :grin: :grin:

OK, I will accept full responsibility here for scrambling the symptoms/diagnoses chart.  Sorry, Alan.

I am more concerned about the compression issue (probably because it has more expensive implications) than I am about some vacuum leaks that you have identified and will inevitably fix.

Sooo... "Who's on third?"   :-P

What puzzles me about this is the plug was always dry on this cylinder, not saying compression is not part of the equation but I would think the plug should have been wet unless you had very little vacuum.

Not to damper your will or enthusiasm by any means, I would have diagnosed this a little further before a tear down, since you are here I would make sure all is okay before going back together. Understand I do like your get-down-to-business approach.

Someone mentioned a ring, how does your cylinder look for the problem area?

Tool..
Didn't you mention that the compression was the same with and without oil, OR did you ONLY test with oil?
IF tested dry & oiled, doesn't that say it's probably NOT rings?
Just trying to not go deeper into the motor if not necessary..

Did you consider taking the head to a head shop??

If he has a broken compression ring. Wouldn't he have seen some type of blow by coming from the engine ? I don't know much about these engines. But do they have a vacum line going to the grank case to create  negitive pressure ? If so wouldn't there be a lot of oil residue inside the line?

Did the head gasket show any signs of leakage?

Make sure the spark plug screws in securely.

Valves...
Try spraying some WD-40 or such on top of the valves(from the carb and exhaust pipe sides) and see if any of it seeps through. It's hard to tell from the pics but it looks like one of the #2 cyl. exhaust valves might leak.

QuoteIf he has a broken compression ring. Wouldn't he have seen some type of blow by coming from the engine ? I don't know much about these engines. But do they have a vacum line going to the grank case to create  negitive pressure ? If so wouldn't there be a lot of oil residue inside the line?

QuoteDid the head gasket show any signs of leakage?

Make sure the spark plug screws in securely.

Valves...
Try spraying some WD-40 or such on top of the valves(from the carb and exhaust pipe sides) and see if any of it seeps through. It's hard to tell from the pics but it looks like one of the #2 cyl. exhaust valves might leak.

Just re-emphasizing what sounds like really good advice to me.

Before teardown I did check the compression with a splash of oil and dry. Both only read around 90, which is terrible.  There was never blow by burning out the exhaust.  The spark plug was changed twice, just to see if a simple thing would help and it didnt.  I know at least some amount of fuel and spark were getting to that cylinder because I pulled all three other plugs and left that one on and cranked it over.  It sounded terrible but the bike certainly was trying to start.  It would fire kinda randomly but at least I knew that cylinder was doing SOMETHING.  I started by just pulling off the valve cover and checking the clearence.  The #2 was sitting at .005 when the book calls for .006 so I made the small adjustment.  Now this whole time I did still have a pretty terrible gas leak from the tube that connects the #2 carb to the #4, but I could pull the #2 float bowl screw and gas would pour out, so I know gas was getting down there.  When I pulled the head off the head gasket was bone dry with no signs of any compression leaving that cylinder.  I know the #2 valve heads are pretty built up with carbon on both the intake and exhaust while the #4 exhaust valves look heated and browned, so there is certainly a difference there.  I took the whole bike with all the parts neatly aranged to a shop yesterday to see if he could make top from bottom of this problem.  He won't be able to start till Monday, though, so now I'm overly anxious and restless lol.  I don't like letting other people work on my stuff, but I feel like I'm out of ideas.  Now he did say the first thing he's gonna do is pour some fuel in the tops of the valves to see if it leaks through... I noticed silverado just mentioned that.  Such a simple idea, I wish I would have thought of that before I took it in.  So now, sadly, I just wait :(

Well keep us informed of the outcomehope it is something simple..

Well, after about a week and a half, I was finally able to get some time to work on the bike again.  I pulled the left front exhaust valve out first and it was really badly coated with carbon build up around the underside of the valve head but not really too bad on the seal itself.  The mating surface on the actual cylinder head was equally coated on the inside, but again not too bad on the seal surface.  I cleaned it up to look like new and replaced it.  the springs, cap, and retainer clips all looked perfect.  I then pulled the Intake valve directly adjacent to that exhaust valve and that's as far as I've gotten so far.  The underside of that intake valve has two pretty deep portions erroded into it but the mating surface seems completely intact.  The intake port on the cylinder head looks a bit dirty but no damage on that side. 

I wonder if that damage could cause a compression problem or not?

It could... 
Wouldnt take much keeping the seal from being proper to hurt compression #'s.  If you dont mind doing the work, clean all the valves and heads up, reinstall and check compression again.  Might be all that is needed.. 
I would still (personally) refresh things up since I was there.  Seals, gaskets, rings, hone, etc.  Improvements as one desires etc.

Quote from: Greg Cothern on March 30, 2011, 05:41:36 PM
It could... 
Wouldnt take much keeping the seal from being proper to hurt compression #'s.  If you dont mind doing the work, clean all the valves and heads up, reinstall and check compression again.  Might be all that is needed.. 

Yep, I agree, since he got the same PSI on both the dry and wet compression test, the problem is either a bad head gasket or a valve; being he said the gasket was good, that only leaves the valves.

I now have all of the valves and the head super clean.  I got the head assembled and the new head gasket on and the head lightly bolted up to the crank case.  I've got the confusing set up with the chain tensioners attatched and I'm now completely terrified to finish it all up lol.  The book does not describe in clear detail how to have the cylinders sitting in cunjunction with the camshafts and sprockets.  I know how quickly this can all be for not if I button this thing up with the cams in the wrong position.  Gonna take a breather till tomorrow then tackle it again.  Thanks for the input to all so far who have helped me out.

Not sure which book you have but the Clymers manual that I have is confusing also.

At the T 1-3 mark the #1 cam lobes will be pointing each other.

At the T 2-4 mark the #2 cam lobes will "slightly" facing each other at about a 1 o'clock and 11 o'clock posistion.

If I recall correctly when at the T 1-3 mark all the lines on the cam gears will line up even with the head surface.

oh boy, I can tell that my cams aren't lining up correctly.  When I have it at T 2-4 The lobes over the #2 are at about 1 oclock on the forward side and about 2 oclock at the exhaust side.  I have the rocker arms loosened all the way up and plugs out and I can turn the motor by hand very slowly and when I get back around to the T 2-4 there is no compression when I put my finger in the plug hole.  There are a set of sprocket dots at 12 oclock at T 2-4 and the sprocket lines are somewhere 90 degrees back from that, nowhere near lined up with the line of the head.  I just can't quite understand how the cams could go on in any other way.  When it's at T 2-4 there should be no pressure on the valves to the #2 so it eliminates almost any movement where the cams could be rolled forward or back.

I got the bike all put back together yesterday.  I read out the compression: #1-185psi #2-195psi #3-185psi #4-190psi.  So now there is no question about compression!  I took the carbs apart and cleaned all of the jets and float valves.  the #2 carb had some pretty bad sandy looking residue in the bowl but the jets and float valve were clean.  I checked the spark at all four cylinders and it's all sparking really strong.  I set the valve lash to .006 like the book tells.  I start the bike up and it fires right up on the first crank.  The exhaust note seems quite a bit deeper than before which I thought was a good sign.  I give a few minutes of idle time and give it some throttle and it's still exactly the same as before :(  I shoot the temperature with my little temp laser gun thingy and the #1,#3, and #4 are all around 250 degrees and the dang #2 is only 90 :-x  I quite litterally do not know what else to do.  Why on earth would that cylinder still not be firing correctly?  I have a quad vacuum guage set coming in the mail in the next couple of days and I'll read out the carbs then, but as of now, I'm at my witts end.

have you addressed spark yet as in switching coils you have elminated the cylinders so on to the next thing coils they have been known to go out thats all I can think of.

Keep the chin up she will be right soon and your hands will burn from trying to hang on to the beast  :cool: :cool:

When I get back from the doc's office today, I'll switch them out just to see if the problem transfers to the other side or not.  Thanks for the idea!

I swapped out the coils and the problem still lies in the #2 cylinder.  Now with everything checking good, can it be as simple as carb sync and setting causing this?  I don't see how the carbs, even if they're not adjusted correctly, could cause the #2 exhaust not to heat up like it's not even firing, but maybe(hopefully) it is that simple.

Glad to hear the compression is back to where it should be; one problem solved, on to the next.  As far as the carburetor being the cause, it's very possible; a cylinder running very lean can cause the header pipe to glow red, as it runs too hot and a cylinder that's running too rich can cause the header pipe to be noticeably cooler than the others.  Read the spark plugs to see if there is any indication of that cylinder running richer or leaner than the others and go from there.  It still sounds like a fuel ratio or sync problem to me; I've seen a lot of them idle on three cylinders due to a clogged idle feed, but run pretty good off idle where the primary feed kicks in.  How does it idle? Is it idling on all four or does that cylinder drop off at idle?

If the plug is dry dump a little gas in the plug hole and fire it up, see if there is a change, better if you can do this through the intake on the carbs and keep feeding it gas, that will tell you if it's a gas issue.

This is simple to do and can rule out a lot of questions.

QuoteIf the plug is dry dump a little gas in the plug hole and fire it up, see if there is a change, better if you can do this through the intake on the carbs and keep feeding it gas, that will tell you if it's a gas issue.

Good idea.  Maybe put some gas in a squirt bottle of some sort and steady (as needed) squirt a little in through that carb while it is running and see what happens.

Quote from: DG on April 05, 2011, 10:32:45 AM

QuoteIf the plug is dry dump a little gas in the plug hole and fire it up, see if there is a change, better if you can do this through the intake on the carbs and keep feeding it gas, that will tell you if it's a gas issue.

Good idea.  Maybe put some gas in a squirt bottle of some sort and steady (as needed) squirt a little in through that carb while it is running and see what happens.

(http://www.guywheatley.com/photos/fireman.jpg)

OK, DON'T douse yourself with the gas and then fill your mouth and spit it into the carbs like Guy did.  How are the skin grafts going Guy?

LOL!
  I got my carb sychronizer gauges yesterday.  I got them all hooked up and got the bike to normal op temp.  The #1, which cannot be adjusted, was sitting at about 20hg and the rest were all over the place.  The #2, the one that I'm having trouble with, is only reading 2hg.  I tried to adjust them around to get them all to be equal and the only time I got all four close to each other is when they read about 10-12.  On my gauges, that zone of only 0-10, describes that amount as bad timing or vacuum leak.  If I run all the carbs, #2-#4, down to about 5 hg then the #1 goes back up to the green zone of about 20hg.  Any of the adjustments I made does not allow the bike to run well.  It idles perfect allways, but has nothing when I try to drive it.  Not really missing, just not going anywhere.  There is no valve noise at all at idle or on the gas so I'd like to think the valve adjustment is good but I don't know.  I might just have to take it to a shop and let someone else with more knowledge than me fix it I think.  I just don't have the money for it right now though.

Might sound silly, but what is your charging system putting out?  Man I just went through hell on my big Kawasaki Voyager, I've been a professional mechanic for almost 30 years and would have bet money it was a fuel related problem; pulled the carbs and went through them, synced the carbs, bench checked my fuel pump and replaced my fuel filter before I realized I was actually fighting a charging problem.

While this was going on, the bike idled ok, but would miss and act like it was starving for fuel during acceleration and higher RPM's.  Turned out my alternator was bad and the bikes ignition system requires the charging system to be in tip top shape or it will supply a very weak spark; causing poor acceleration, bucking and even back firing during anything much above idle. 

I know that I've checked basically every wire on this bike when I was trying to figure out my fuel pump and fuel pump relay problem.  All the hot wires were reading around 11.5v-12v.  I'll have to check the alternator.  I think that with the vacuum irregularity with my carbs, I must have an air problem with the bike.  But I'll check the alternator just incase. Thanks for the info!

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on April 06, 2011, 11:40:27 AM
All the hot wires were reading around 11.5v-12v.  I'll have to check the alternator.  I think that with the vacuum irregularity with my carbs, I must have an air problem with the bike.  But I'll check the alternator just incase. Thanks for the info!

If that voltage reading is while the bike is running, it's way low; even at idle it should be above 12 volts.  This may be the direction you need to be headed in.

John, you make a good point here.  

ToolBox, when you get to 3000 rpm or greater, the voltage should climb above 13V, as high as 15.5, depending on the age and condition of your battery.  

I know the regulator/rectifier modules are not cheap, so what I suggest you try is to charge the battery with a charger to full charge, then measure the voltage -- should be 12.6 to 13 volts.  With a voltmeter attached, try running the bike and see if the problem is improved any, or if the voltage drops again to 11-12 volt range.

This would not, of course, explain the difficulty you are having with synchronizing the carbs...

Thanks guys for the input!  I will check that when I get home.  The battery is brand spanking new and far too expensive lol.  Should I check the Voltage directly from the wires that come out of the case where the Alternator is, or just any hot wire on the bike?

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on April 06, 2011, 06:26:33 PM
Thanks guys for the input!  I will check that when I get home.  The battery is brand spanking new and far too expensive lol.  Should I check the Voltage directly from the wires that come out of the case where the Alternator is, or just any hot wire on the bike?

You can check the alternator out put at the battery, however, it's good to check it at the alternator as well; if it's got good out put at the alternator but low at the battery, you need to check that circuit for security and or corrosion.

At around 0130 this morning my wife and I were still pecking away at the bike.  I had to take the dang carbs off the bike again and give it a good lookover.  Luckily we noticed that the backing plate that the #2 carb mixture screw pushes against was bent a little bit.  Because it was bent, the screw had nothing to push against to make adjustments.  We bent it down and ran the screw back in and put the carbs back on the bike.  Suddenly, everything started coming together!  The carbs are now in sync and the bike is running pretty good.  Now I just need to tackle the pilot mixture screws because it seems a bit rich.  I'm just gald I was able to actually ride the bike to base today!

Awesome news !

All right!  Persistence pays off.  Congratulations!

Good deal! It's always a good feeling when it finally starts coming together.

I got the bike nice and warm after running up and down the roads, racing from one stop sign to the next today and then re-sync'd the carbs again just to make sure everything is tuned as best I can.  The amount of HG vacuum seems low from what I'm used to seeing with car and truck vacuum, but at least they are all pulling equal amounts and the bike seems to like it!  I'm gonna take the bike out tomorrow on the highway and see if it runs equally as nice as it is right now on the in-town roads.  I surely appreciate everybody's input on this forum, it really helped out a lot!

That is a nice looking synchronizer set. 

I use a "mercury stick", four tubes of strapped to a board with a common pool of mercury.  The mercury bounces about an inch in each tube at idle, so I adjust by noticing the limits of each column of mercury and adjust so they are as equal as I can get them.

Do these gages have the same issue, or do they hold pretty steady?

If you look at the vacuum lines about 4 inches below the guage set, they give you some regulator valves to install anywhere in the line you want.  I put them all right there at the top and then just slow spin them in untill the needle levels out.  Without them the needle goes crazy like you were talking about.  With them turned in a bit the needles only bounce like 1/16 of an inch.  This very set is only 40 bucks on EBAY.  I really am glad I bought them.

Oh, so THAT's what those little white doodads are. 

You paid less for yours than I did for mine, and they are far superior, it would appear.  Good move!

Quote from: lragan on April 09, 2011, 06:41:42 AM
That is a nice looking synchronizer set. 

OH, that's what that is.. I thought you had a pretty cool dashboard on the bike..!!

Quote from: hootmon on April 10, 2011, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: lragan on April 09, 2011, 06:41:42 AM
That is a nice looking synchronizer set. 

OH, that's what that is.. I thought you had a pretty cool dashboard on the bike..!!

Too funny..... I was thinking something like that till I enlarged the pic

Oh LOL.  Well those gauges are working better than my actual gauges are right now.  I still have no speedometer because that speedo-gearbox is busted and I can't find another one to replace it yet.  I'm really glad I bought that gauge set, I've used them so many times already.  Everytime I do any adjustment to the motor, I just slap those things on and bring the carbs back into sync.  Takes like ten minutes!

Well, after EVERYTHING is replaced and new on my bike it still isn't running right.  Don't get me wrong, I've hit 135 on it now, and it's a chore to hold on to it so I'm having lots of fun with it.  At now point, though, is the bike not chuffing out of the pipes and intake.  It's not really a miss because the bike doesn't lurch or stutter but it's a loud, near backfire, chuffing.  The front left exhaust will barely reach 120 degrees at idle, and around 190 at high rpm.  The front right gets about 260 at idle and mid 300's at high rpm.  The back two run evenly at around 400 at idle and then low 500's at high rpm.  My bike now has a new set of valves on the front two cylinders.  Compression is 190+-5 on all four cylinders.  New head gasket, air box gasket, new stock air filter, new NGK plugs gapped at .032, new NGK plug wires, new Dynatek coils.  Pulse generators read out good according to the Honda Shop Manual and so do the spark boxes.  It also a new Honda fuel pump and relay. I've had the carbs apart numerous times and syncronized even more than I'd like to remember.  The jets and float valves have been removed and re-cleaned.  All four floats are in great working order and set correctly.  I have the valves set to .036 at TDC.  Both tanks are perfectly clean on the inside and I've used low to high octane.  The plugs on #1,3,4 are bronze and clean after slow driving and Fast racing around and the #2 plug always has heavy carbon build up and smells like fuel.  It chugs a bit on takeoff then runs smooth except for the chuffing sound, and if I tromp on it, it climbs quickly to about 7k then starts jolting like it's missing to about 8k then clears up to redline in every gear minus 6th.  Any gearheads out there have any other ideas now that I've changed so much out on the bike already?  My biggest concern is why such a large temp difference between each cylinder?  Is this normal, maybe, due to the different size jets in each carb?

Check out my progress pics of the bike on Facebook if you'd like: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/fbx/?set=a.139268109470737.27831.100001626460204

ToolBoxPop
I am truly sorry you are having such problems!
I have several things for you to consider.
First, it sounds to me like you are flooding cyl #2, this can only be done two ways. Either the float level is set wrong or you have a bad needle & seat allowing the fuel to continue to fill the carb bowl.  I would think that at high rpm it would clear, but I'm not sure.  The one thing I do know is that you will, at some point, toast the motor if there is fuel dilution of the oil (fuel fills the cylinder and leaks past the piston rings into the oil). Please keep a close eye on your oil level and for the smell of gas in the oil, if you are growing oil or smell gas you will need to change the oil. 
Since you have checked the floats several times I would be concerned with the needle & seat.
Is your bike a California model?  Do you have a charcoal canister in front of your engine?  do you know what model carbs you have on the bike?
I have read this entire post but I don't remember seeing this info.......
I will check in tomorrow to see your comments.

Take Care
Robert.

I've been checking the oil for the fuel smell and so far I don't think i've bled enough fuel into the crankcase to even leave a scent, but I am for sure watching that.  Very good point.  My bike was a Cali edition with all the extra vacuum lines and canister ect.  but I removed the canister and installed a set of freshly rebuilt Non-Cali carbs.  I pluged the #3 vacuum port that used to feed into the mess of vacuum lines and pluged the tank vent, then installed a venillated gas cap.  The three needles that are in that #2 carb all seemed to be very clean.  Two of them have a flat head groove in them so they came out easy and I've cleaned them several times, but one of them has no grove and the brass is so pliable that I'm afraid to put any pliers on it, but I can blow through it easily.  The float moves up and down equal to all three of the others and the float valve and screen are clean too.  I know that at this point I'm just missing something probably obvious but I surely can't figure it out.  Do the Non-Cali V65 Magnas have the same set up as far as vacuum boxes as the Cali versions?  Mine(orgionally Cali) has two vacuum jugs under the seat.  The big rubber vaccum lines runs from the back of the carb to the top vacuum box then a smaller vacuum line feeds down to the lower box, then a line just empties out to the open air out the bottom of the bike.  I put a pic of the carbs where they sit when they are syncronized, I cannot get them to read close to each other with any higher vacuum than like 9 inches of vacuum.  For a chevy 350, for example,  this would be crazy low, but I'm not sure if it's normal for a magna motor or not.  I appreciate the feedback!

Thanks, Justin.

Justin.

Your carb sync is very close and not the problem at all!
The needle is the little short fat pointed piece that attaches to the float and is like a shut off valve, as the float rises due to the level of gas it closes off the fuel supply to that carb.  It attaches to the float right at the same area that the float pivot pin is located.  Attached is a pic of the float bowl with the different parts labled, in this pic the needle is called the float valve, which is also correct. The other pic is the vale itself.  I have to go right now (work) but I WILL keep up with you and this so we can get it fixed!

Robert.

Thanks, Reaper, for the pics and info.  I have taken the float valve out on mine, which also has a screen around it and it all seems to be clean as a whistle.  I've taken off the slow and fast jets and they also are very clean, but I couldn't get the starter jet to spin off.  I was afraid to really squeeze on it with pliers or anything so I just left it.  I can't say for sure if it was clogged or not,  I'd think that only effects idle rpm's though correct?

Toolboxpop
OK, its clean, thats great but not what we need to be concerned with at this point.  Refer back to the pic of the valve in the guys hand, see the pointed end that looks black, that is the seal surface, the black stuff is some sort of hard rubber, it can crack and or get a grove/ring  in it from the "seat (the other side of the valve up in the carb body).  If this happens it allows fuel to continue to flow into the bowl when it should not.  Once the bowl is over full guess where the extra fuels goes......RIGHT!  Into the cylinder! you get a fowled plug that looks wet/dark and smells like fuel.....sound familiar? (please don't take any of this the wrong way, I try and write with humor sometiemes it doesn't coma across correctly) You should ask yourself this question, is it worth it to me to pull the carbs....yet again... to check this.   If you say yes I want to help, and the best way I can do that long distance is by phone and camera.  If you pull your carbs again  I would like you to photograph things as you go, and I will be on the phone with you at the time, and look at the pic's as you go so we get it fixed.
Balls in your court.
No hurry on my end, I'm not going anywhere. 

Robert.

I'm never one to back down from a good dissasembly lol.  The only part I hate about taking the carbs out is that dang air box top, but I can get the carbs off in about 15 minutes.  I might wait untill Friday evening when I don't have to rely on it for a work ride.  I wonder if I can just pull the bowl off, still on the bike, and remove the float and use the float valve by hand to see if it's able to shut the fuel flow off.  I'd have to run a couple fuel hoses off of the jets to catch the gas.  If I can apply a minimal amount of pressure to that valve in an attempt to mimic the actual float level, it should give me a yay or nay on that seal.  Thanks, again, for your help.  It's much appreciated!

Yea, the air box top is are PITA to get out, but it does come out one side much easer than the other, I just cant remember which side that is....wait...the manual, do you have the Honda maintenance manual?  
check here if you dont -->  http://thepit.shacknet.nu/honda/index.php

I would bet that the needle seats need to be changed. 

Make sure the airbox is sealed properly as this can make them run not right.  ALL Magna's DO NOT like an airbox that has been altered or not sealed.

Hey Reaper, do you still have a good running V65?  If you do, do you have the means to take the temp of each exhaust pipe at normal operating temp?  I'm really wondering if the different jet sizes in each carb is the reason for the differences in exhaust temp.  Oh ya, here's the latest change to the bike.  I bent up a piece of 3/32, 301 stainless steel and polished it for a a decent windshield.

Oops.  I tried to link three pics from my Facebook, but apparently I have no idea what I'm doing on this here think-box.  I can't figure out how to save the picture and link it lol.

Yea, I drive mine daily, just put a new rear tire on it and did my annual service, I'm ready to ride all summer long. My son has a temp gun for his Bearded Dragons to measure the cage temp, I will see if it will do the job. the tricky part will be getting a good reading on the rear pipes since they have a heat shield on them, but I will try.

after getting home from work (riding the bike) I let it idle for 3-4 minutes.
front pipes both at 250-260
rear pipes both at 300-310
I attribute the higher temps due to the lack of cooling air around the rear pipes.

Well, Reaper, now I want to drive my bike straight into a dumpster now.  Your bike is emiculate!  My bike looks like a heap of crap compared to yours *cry*  I'm incredibly jealous.

Well it does have the title of "money pit" so don't be hard on your self, but thank you, I did and still do work very hard on it.

Here's those pictures I tried to post before.  That shield really helps cut down the torso beating I was taking from the wind before I made it.

Hey Pop, there is nothing wrong with the way your Magna looks, actually I like it!  The shape of your shield looks very similar to the one I (and allot of other Magna riders) use and it looks like you did a great job on it.  You will like the pressure it takes off your chest but still allows air around your head. 
Any new news on the #2 cylinder problem?

I like it.

Well thanks guys!  That shield surely does help with the chest wind but, your right, it still beats my head up a bit.  My #2 still runs much cooler than my #4, which is running far cooler than the back two.  I know that there is still something off, I just can't figure out what it is.  I took it to my doc visit today which was a total of 250 miles.  I ran it around 80 on the highway for most the trip.  It's running so good compared to what it was when I first got it.  I do, though, still have the constant low rpm chuffing/backfire going on.  And anytime I'm climbing into the throttle it jumps pretty strong off the line and pulls hard to about 6500 rpm, then it does this lunging thing where it feels like it free's up and slings foward briefly then is restricted, then free's up, then restricted, over and over all the way to 10k or when I shift.  Once I've shifted, it leaps and lunges foward a few times for only a few seconds then pulls hard to 6500 again and starts it's jumping foward thing over again.  It's like it's trying really hard to slingshot foward but something is intermittenly keeping it from doing so.  I still have strong compression(190 or so) in all cylinders, and now have new dynatech coils and new NGK plugs and wires.  I now have $3,000 into it(buying cost included) and would like to not dump anymore into it with "replacement troubleshooting" lol.  I really think it's something I'm not adjusting right.

Well I totally understand not wanting to spend any more on parts till you figure out whats going on, and guess what, I'm not going to suggest you change anything. When you are ready to take this on again my advice has not changed from earlier, you need to check some things in your carbs starting with the float valves/needle & seats (same part different names) and then there are the emulsion tubes and the diaphragm needles and the diaphragm springs to check.  I sent my phone number in a PM the other day, when you are ready to look at this stuff, give me a call, until then - ENJOY THE RIDE!!!   8) 8)

Quotewhich is running far cooler than the back two.

This is normal.  The back two just don't have the air circulation, especially around the exhaust, to keep them as cool.  This is why the rear carbs are jetted richer than the front.

DG, I figured the lack of space would certainly cause some temp difference, but should it cause the amount of difference I have?  That front left almost cannot get above 200 deg.  while the front right will get around 300 deg. and the back two are near 500 deg.   The only cylinder that seems odd to me is that front left.  I can pull off of the highway after a 2.5 hour run at 80mph and comfortably wrap my hand around that #2 exhaust, and it's just barely above warm.

ToolBoxPop
When are you taking these readings? I understand you are at operating temp on the motor, but is it right after running down the road?  no idle time? or are you allowing the bike to idle for a few minutes after riding it before you take the readings.
500 degrees in the rear is WAY to hot for idle, your running lean back there, and yes, under 200 in front is to cold.

Some simple and easy things to verify:
coils: One for cyl 1&3 (rear two) and should have the white & yellow wire going to it.  One for cyl 2&4 (front two) with the white/blue wire going to it, both should have a ground wire (black I think) If these are mixed up that might cause your problem.

The rest would require the carbs to come out again, but if the coils are hooked up as described above then your problems is most likely in the carbs.
the carbs for the rear cylinders (1&3) have some different parts in them form the other two. There are different legnth springs (shorter) for the diaphragms, the diaphragm jet needles are thinner and the emuslion tubes are different as well as the jet size depending on what year carbs you have. The float level can be different also depending on year and can make a huge difference if set improperly at high RPM/speed- no rocket science here, just verify the basics.

Well I have gone way off track from what I wanted so........as I said earlier....call me if you want when you are ready......until then -  Enjoy the Ride!

I would suspect that some of the jets and springs etc have been swapped from front to rear cylinders.  The rear cylinder carbs have a stronger spring as the tilt of the engine puts the trumpets more in the air flow.  Also I believe the rear cylinders have a slightly larger set of jets.  Usually 2 higher, for example (dont quote me on the #'s cant remember, so I am simply throwing out an arbitrary set of #'s), if the front cylinders had 100's then the rear would have 102's.
If these springs and jets were inadvertantly swapped you will create a varied air fuel mixture that would result in some of your wildly differently temp readings. 
You have not mentioned your Pilot Jet adjustments???   I would start by turning them in to a light seat them back them out 2 1/2" turns, good place to start.  I tuned my Super Magna with the roll-off method.  IN as quiet of an area as I could get I warmed up the Super, and adjusted the idle high to 1200-1300 rpms, then opened the jet (counter-clockwise, richening) till I could tell/hear the rpms slightly fall off, then turned the jet in clockwise about an 1/8th of a turn.  On to the next carb.
I think you will find a closer reading. 

I've tried really hard a few times to adjust the pilot screws like the book says, just like Greg described.  I cannot hear the difference in rpm when I turn the screws, nor does turning one pilot screw at a time even change the motor enough to know a stopping point to turn it back in 1/8 turn.  So what I did was start each screw at 2 1/2 turns out then run it in town and on the highway.  I then onece I parked it and let it cool, I pulled each plug and adjusted the screws according to how the plugs looked.  All four pilot screws are in different positions, but not by much.  Right now, all the plugs are a nice bronzed color with no carbon build up except for the #2.  It's a good color but has a little build up still.  I'm gonna have to get Reaper on the phone here soon and pull the carbs apart to figure it out.  I think maybe Greg migh be on to something with the swaped out jets and springs but I don't know.  I would be suprised if it were something that wrong because this bike is still the fastest bike I've ever rode.

It would still be fast!!!  LoL.

You can pull a front diaphragm and rear diaphragm and check, especially on the cylinders that are WAY OUT.

Im gonna pull it apart this weekend, but here's a goofy question:  My bike is an 86, I have 83 Non-Cali carbs on them.  the main jets on an 86 are front-#115 and rear-#118 but the main jets on an 83 are both #140.  Is there a difference in the engine to where this difference could cause a problem?  Which jets should I try to set this carb to, the 86 specs like my motor, or the 83 specs like the carbs?

Pop.

I am running the exact same set up you are, an 86 engine with 70A carbs.  The engine is a stupid mechanical assembly of parts.  It does not care, nor have anything built into it to limit its performace from year to year, timming is all the same, the difference is in the carbs!  If you have the 70A carbs and are running stock exhaust up to the collector, then use the 140s.  I have found, for me, at my location, with my atmospheric conditions and my set up that 142's all around work best.

Thanks Reaper.  Tomorrow I'll pull them off and check out their gizzards.  Is there a way to identify what size the jets are?

Yeah get a magnifer lens and should be numbers on them.

Well, I just took the carbs out and pulled them apart.  All of the float bowls look very clean.  All of my main jets are the 140's and are all very clean.  The shorter jets all have the #38 on them.  I'm not sure if that's the correct size or not.  I took the springs and the jet needles out, and everything seems to be free moving and very clean.  The longer springs and the thicker jet needles were installed in the front two carbs just like the shop manual describes they should.  I'm not totally sure how to read out the float level (6.0mm, the manual reads) and I'm not sure what the book is talking about with "Venturi Dia."-Primary 12.0mm and Secondary 33.2mm.  Overall, it's looking like I'm not going to find anything blatenly wrong in these carbs to explain my bikes problems.  I do need to double check my coil wires.  Mine has the black/white wires attached to the (+) terminals on both sides, then on the right (-) is a yellow wire, and on the left (-) is a green wire.

Did you check the float valces???????????????
no type of damage is allowed, no rings, no cracks, nothing, they should look perfect!

Im not sure what is going on with your coils.  The book only shows two wires to the coils, and that is all I have gling to mine as well.  Black&white is ground, common to both coils, yellow goes to the coil for cyl 1&3, blue goes to 2&4.  Green is usally assosiated with a ground in my expierence. Where does the green wire go/come from?

I haven't gotten to the float valves just yet, it was pretty late last night when I took them apart.  On my coils, the black/white are going to the positive side?  The one that I thought was green, is infact blue, sorry bout that.  Would those coils even work at all if they were wired up backwards because it sounds like mine are lol.  I'll get back into the carbs a little later.   Thanks for the input so far!

The wire diagram does not specify, but you are correct, it would seem it does not matter.  When you look at the float valves, please look up inside the valve housing where the pointed end of the valve plunger goes.  Its a small hole so if you have a magnifier and a bright light it helps.  the housings can be removed also, they have a screen on them if you do remove them.  Please feel free to call me if you want.

I inspected the float valves really well, and they all four have a visible ring where they seat but I cannot feel an indentation so I think they are still good to go.  I got ReaperKeeper on the phone and we discussed what I was looking at with my carbs, and I noticed that one of the brass colored tubes that stems down into the float bowls directly next to the float valve was different than the others.  The #2 tube was open straight through to the carburetor intake.  And I noticed that the vacuum piston needle, when fed in from the top of the carb slides straight down that tube.  The other three tubes had a steel ball pressed into the end to block it off.  Reaper looked at a set of carbs at his house and found out that without that steel ball at the end, there was nothing metering the flow of fuel.  For a lack of any better ideas, I JB Welded the end of the tube closed.  Took the bike for a spin after syncing the carbs and holy cow did that bike come to life.  Flawless acceleration clean through rpms and pulls hard!  That is the fastest machine I've ever been on for sure!  For some reason though, that #2 exhaust still only reads about 190 degrees when the others run far hotter.  At least I'm making progress!  Thanks Reaper for the help!

That's great news and a great find!  It sounds like the additional fuel was keeping the cylinder temps down in that cylinder.

I've riden the bike around quite a bit now and I'm loving the rush this thing gives!  It feels like it's running tip top, but and low speeds and any sustained speed, the thing sounds like a popcorn machine gone bad.  I've pulled the plugs and they are all a nice light bronzed color, not too lean, not too rich from what I can tell.  I've riden slowly for about 20 minutes and pulled over to take the exhaust temps.  #1 and#4 heat up to around 460 degrees, #3 around 265 and #2 only 180.  I've tore down the highway like Peewee Gleason and stoped to take the temps and they are nearly exactly the same as slow driving.  I let it sit in the garage with the door open but no real airflow for about 15 minutes and the motor heats up to 5 bars on the guage but that #2 still only reads about 190 while the #3 is about 365 and the #1 and #4 are around 520.  The compression on all four cylinders are near identical at 185-190 psi.  What NOW could possible causing this heat difference.  Whatever is causing it is more than likely the cause of that constant exhaust/intake chuffing and popping.

How are you measuring the temperatures?

With one of the temp laser gun things.  I measure them all close to the cylinder because that's all I can get a shot at on the back two.  There is about a 1/2 inch gap between the collector and the heat shroud.

Forgive me for not reading through all 10 pages  :D, but have you checked the spark box(es)?  I realize you've checked plugs, but maybe its a weak spark?  With exhaust temps that low, something is wrong, if you've eliminated the induction side and have good compression, time to move to the electronics.   I'm not sure what the V65 uses for spark, but would assume it has a separate spark "igniter" that you could switch/swap around.  What does the v65 use for timing/spark control?

I have checked both spark boxes and both coils and both pulse generators in accordence with the Honda shop manual multiple times.  The coils ended up reading pretty high resistance so I replaced them with new dynatech coils and new NGK wires and plugs.  The spark boxes and related wires all checked out good as well as the pulse generators.  I tried swapping the spark boxes to see if the problem migrated to the other cylinders but it didn't change the outcome, so I feel like I've eliminated the spark boxes and wiring as the culprit, although the spark boxes and pulse generators are quite literally the ONLY things I have not replaced at this point lol.  I really feel like the problem is in the carburetors but I just find myself scrathing my head at what I should even be looking for when I have them apart.  I do know, that before I replaced the carbs, my bike had the California setup with all the vacuum crap and Cali carbs and that #2 cylinder was not acting the way it is now.  The problem is that I've done so much to the bike since then that it's hard to know what could have changed enough to cause this problem.

Quote from: ToolBoxPop on May 11, 2011, 08:34:27 AM
With one of the temp laser gun things.  I measure them all close to the cylinder because that's all I can get a shot at on the back two.  There is about a 1/2 inch gap between the collector and the heat shroud.

The "temperature gun" devices do not actually measure temperature -- they measure infrared radiation and impute temperature.  The amount of IR that comes off a hot body is very dependent on the body surface and "color". Further, the angle of reception may be wide enough that you are getting other sources included, depending on how you hold it and what it is pointed at. The inclusion of a simple laser to designate a "spot" is deceptive, since the device receives from a much wider angle than the "spot" implies.  If, for example, you are comparing a "dark" surface with a highly reflective one, like chrome, you can get the kind of variation you are seeing, even though the temperatures are the same.

Measuring high temperatures accurately is not simple.  There are a couple of options.  I use a thermocouple held tightly to the surface I am trying to measure, like under a bolt head or using a clamp such as you would use to hold together a stack of papers.  There is no easy way to switch thermocouples because the switches corrupt the results, but I have several that I can plug and unplug from the simple meter that I bought at Harbor Freight for about $20, as I recall.  It gives consistent results.   I have checked it in ice water and boiling water and it is "spot on".

Another option, using the gear you already have, is to use a spot of high temperature black paint, such as is sold for use on barbecue grills, on each point you are interested in, and get the gun close enough so that it's field of view is dominated by the spot you have applied.  If the paint bothers you on your cylinder heads or exhaust stacks, it can be removed with Methyl Ethyl Ketone (don't breathe the stuff) that you can buy at a paint store.

I knew that gun wouldn't be too acurate for the true exhaust temp due to the heavy curve of such a small diameter pipe and the semi reflective surface, but since I'm using it on all four in the same manor from the same distance and angle I believe it is still a relevant reading for comparisson purposes only.  I know that I should not be able to comfortably hold on to the #2 exhaust pipe fresh off the street with my bare hands, so I know even though the readings most certainly aren't as acurate as I'd like them to be that it's at least a good indicator of a bigger problem.  thanks for the info

Here's a few pics that show the missing pressed in ball in the #2 carb and then the cheap JB weld fix.

Pop.

Well I am shocked that this did not fix it!  :shock:
with everything you have replaced and checked  I can only think of one thing that might still be a culprit.
You checked your diaphragms right?  Not just looking at them but testing them.  Once installed in the carb use your finger or any thing to raise the slide and hold it up for about 3 to 5 seconds, then let it go.  It should NOT drop like a rock.  If it does you have a vacuum problem, either a bad diaphragm or a crack or hole some where.  You might be able to do this by just removing the air filter and the screen top of the airbox.

I am glad you are enjoying the ride!

Before I installed the carbs, I was telling my wife that maybe I had a pinhole or something in those diaphragms, just as a guess.  The very same way you just described, ironically, was the only way I could think of to check for that.  They all feel spongy pushing up like it's fighting air pressure and they all just seep back down.  I did think though that #1,3,4 felt very smooth and the #2 was a little more rough feeling, so I used a greenie-weenie scrub pad to smooth out everything I could in that vacuum piston chamber and it made it far smoother.  I too really thought I had it fixed with all of this. 

I noticed something new just today.  The stock exhaust that I bought off of ebay(used of course) has been modified a bit.  There are three 3/8" holes drilled into the back of the muffler just behind the round deflector looking plate along the outside edge of the muffler.  I imagine it was to produce more noise, but I wonder if that could cause the popping effect?  Maybe the popping and the cold #2 exhaust aren't linked... but maybe they are lol.

I figure I'll throw in two more pics of the bike how it looks now.  I brushed up the aluminum valve covers and had some vynil stickers made up for the tank.

Pop.

ALL V65 Magnas have some deceleration popping, it is considered normal.  I know several people who have tried to eliminate it, all of them put major effort and $$ into eliminating it.  I only know of one person who was successful....for a short time.
Now if you have popping on acceleration that is a different story and not good news.

The bike looks great, it might be time to just ride!

Thanks Reaper!  This thing is a blast to ride no doubt!  I'm just one of those guys that cannot take something being mechanically wrong, it will drive me completely insane until figure it out.  The only time the popping happens on acceleration is at low speeds and from a take off sometimes.  Mostly it happens at a sustained speed no matter how fast or slow.  I'll just keep an eye on things and continue to ride and have fun with it.  Maybe something will show up as an obvious fix down the road at some point!  This forum has been a fantastic help during my build up of this bike, and Reaper I appreciate you helping me out on the phone.  Thanks:)

The holes are a muffler mod in order to make it a little louder and will make the popping a a little more prevelent.

I went on a ride today for about 75 miles with my wife on the back(not that she makes too much a difference at 110lbs).  Before I left, I turned each pilot jet out by about 1/8 a turn to see if maybe it would change the way the bike ran and the popping sound for better or for worse.  We got out on the highway and boy was the bike running smooth.  One of my buddies has an 07 Yamaha R6 and we started goofing around on the open roads.  I got the bike up to 150 and it felt like it would just keep on climbing.  The 07 R6 with all it had could not pull away from me and I was riding two up!!  I blew my buddies mind with that kind of performance out of such an unassuming bike.  I may have fallen upon the sweet spot for the carb mix because the popping was almost gone, the carbs are still all synced perfectly and the plugs are a nice light bronzed color after the ride.  I can't wait to get my buddy back out on his R-6 when it's just me on the bike, I think I can take him!  I know at 150 his bike was really high in the rpms and I was only at about 7k or so!  I'm not usually one for high speed risks, but this bike brought it out of me today.  I really like the all out throw back acceleration, and this bike surely gives plenty of that!  I think I got her running about as good as a 25 year old bike can!  Thanks for all the help on this forum.  I'm truly lovin this v65 now!

Sounds like you have it tuned in just right, now be super careful we want to keep you and your wife around.

Pop!
Sounds like you got it running right!  Watch out at high speeds, that's when things go wrong fast.  You should be able to spank your bud in the first three gears!

Enjoy the ride!

+1

Quote from: reaperkeeper on May 16, 2011, 01:20:51 PM
Pop!
Sounds like you got it running right!  Watch out at high speeds, that's when things go wrong fast.  You should be able to spank your bud in the first three gears!