OK. I know I'm going to be called a bike-rocondriac for this... but my engine has a little knock after it gets up to operating temperature. I've been ignoring it for about the last 4,000 miles.
Here are the conditions:
1. It starts after the engine is good and hot.
2. Before Mootmag I changed out the plugs to make sure it was NOT faulty ignition. I also synced the carbs and performed the idle drop.
3. To make sure it wasn't the pre-ignition ping. I also switched to a higher grade of gas. In Houston they are cutting 10% ethanol into all the gas. I moved up to Premium and it got quieter... I think. But now even running Premium gas doesn't fix it.
4. The knock went away in Arkansas at MootMag I believe. It was cooler up there and their gas did not appear to be cut with ethanol. It could have also been that I was surrounded by other bikes and couldn't hear it.
5. I don't have a matching knock on the rear cylinders.
Other stuff:
1999 Magna with 12,150 miles.
I used a long screwdriver to listen to the engine at several points and I've isolated where I think the knock is the loudest. I'm attaching a pic from the manual showing the area:
www.staging.andell.com/bike/noise/mystery_noise.jpg
The knock really isn't that loud when sitting on the bike. I had to get my video camera near the block to record it. Here's a link to an mp3 file: www.staging.andell.com/bike/noise/mystery_noise.mp3
The bike is running great. I've hit the rev limiter a few times, and I open it up wide at least once or twice a day, but when I'm commuting I consistently get over40 mpg. I have no complaints, but I'm wondering if this is a cam tensioner noise or valve noise based upon the location.
Questions
1. Any ideas?
2. Anyone know a good V4 mechanic in the Houston area? I haven' been impressed with my local dealership's knowledge of V4s.
You need a cam chain tensioner; easy fix.
Wrenching session? :lol:
John. Can the tentioner be adjusted or do you just replace the whole unit?
Does it involve pulling the cam?
Kerry. This could be one heck of a wrenching session item. :)
It is an automatic tensioner with no adjustment; usually what happens is the spring breaks inside the automatic adjuster. Luckly it is an easy fix. You do not have to remove the cams to change it; there is a special tool that you can make to install the new tensioner; it is in the service manual. Let me know if you do not have access to a manual.
Thanks, John. I have the manual. I'll read up on that section. Since I don't have to pull the cams you just saved me some money... I was seriously thinking... "If I have to pull the cams maybe I should get Dave Dodge's cam for a stock engine setup?!" :D
I'm still undecided about this. I posted this to another forum and one guy says he has a 2003 that's made that noise every since he bought it. Evidently Honda wouldn't fix it even when it was under warranty. He says he still has the noise and hasn't bothered fixing it.
On the other hand, another guy had a cam tensioner go out. He thinks my knock sounds like his engine did. Luckily he lived near Dave Dodge. And Dave told him that with the tensioner out the cam chain could've jumped the gear and that would have really messed up the engine.
Hmm. What to do. What to do. I've sent the sound file to Dave to ask his opinion as well. We'll see.
I have seen a few tensioners go bad, and not a one of them jumped time; even after a lot of miles on it with a bad tensioner. In fact if it jumped time you'd know it; it would run like crap and be very hard to start if at all. Save the money and time; buy a tensioner and get back on the road.
I thought it sounded like something you could use help with. Plus a few others might find it helpful if they ever have to do it. I know even with it being a 3rd gen watching Mark and BamBam pull his carbs made me not quite as leary about pulling mine.
Edit: Even if we don't do a wrenching session. Let me know if you need help and I will see what I can do.
You got that right, Kerry. It's definitely something I would need help with. :) Plus it would make an interesting wrenching session.
Looks like the tensioner is about $75 from a mail order place. John, are there any other parts I should look at getting? The micro fiche is here:
http://www.staging.andell.com/bike/noise/2947_cam_chain.gif
The part you need is "index 7", not the "index 4" that you have high lighted. Look at page 8-2 in the service manual, it is index 16 in that diagram. Page 8-11 covers the removal and replacement, as well as the tool you need to make.
Ah. Index 4 was listed as the tensioner. Index 7 is called the lifter assembly. That doesn't look near as hard to get to and I do recall seeing that in the manual... And it's only $52. Even better.
I'm going to take a look at the manual today. Thanks again, John.
Way to go John!!
I love the way MOOT works!
Bob
Well... Honda of Houston did hear the knock (barely) and they said it could be about 5 things.
The first two are cheap: and that's a valve adjustment or cam chain tensioners. The others involve more serious engine issues which I seriously doubt are the case due to the low miles on the engine.
What they want to do is have me pay for about $3 hours ($180) of time and they're have their V4 guru tear into it and he can figure it out. I was glad to hear they even have a V4 guru.
Otherwise I can wait until the knock gets louder and it's easier for them to isolate. I'd ignore it exept for the fact that if it's a cam chain tensioner I don't want the chain vibrating around scraping off metal. Right now I'm thinking I may try the valve adjustment myself and possibly replace the cam tensioner. After all, their V4 guru can't even look at my bike for a week and a half. That gives me two weekends to get something done.
Anyone up for a wrenching session on August 12th?
Is the $180.00 to tear into it and figure it out and fix it, or just figure it out? The honda shop in Texarkana won't even work on one as old as my 87 ,but if they did, a valve adjustment it would be about 5 hrs at $60.00 an hr. Greg said figure about half a day to tear into it and adjust the valves,if you add the tensioner how much more time would you be adding?
The $180 is just to figure it out. If it takes less time then they'll charge me less, but I don't expect that to happen.
I'm going to read up on what's involved on the valve adjustment and the cam chain tensioner, and decide what to do. I think some Mootster down here in the Houston area has done a valve adjustment.
I don't think that there's much that you guys down in the Houston area hasn't done. Good luck, I'll be watching to see how it turns out.
Quote from: MagnaManI think some Mootster down here in the Houston area has done a valve adjustment.
Marc has done one on his. I plan on doing one at some point.
Yeah, Kerry. I'm debating what to do.
The tech I spoke to at Honda of Houston was not their v4 guy but he said he would first suspect the valves because I modified the stock exhaust and changed the backpressure. The valves could have reacted accordingly. He said motorcycles are very sensitive to changes in backpressure. (Thing is I don't even like the muffler mod and planned on either going to some higher performance pipes or back to stock.)
The service schedule says the valves should be checked at 16,000 miles (I'm at 12,000) although a lot of people said their 3rd gens needed no adjustment. But if the backpressure really is an issue than I may need an adjustment.
So right now I'm suspecting that it's the valves and then possibly the cam chain tensioner.
I looked in the manual and the valve adjustment is pretty extensive. It also requires me buying some tools like a micrometer, metric feeler guages, and allen head sockets for using on a torque wrench. I'll have to pull off a lot of stuff to check them, and if they actually need adjustment then you have to pull the cams to put in the shims. I thought you could just buy a bag of shims and have several to choose from, but according to the parts fiche they're about $5 a piece for the desired thickness and they have about 45 variations of thickness. This means I have to tear it open, see if/what shims I need and then order them or run down to the dealership and buy them. (Someone correct me if I 'm wrong.)
I'm just not sure if I have time to go through all this trouble. That's probably a full day of wrenching just for me doing it. You know how things always take longer than you expect? :) On the other hand it would be cool to see in side my engine and say that I did it.
I'd like to just ignore this knock and say it's a quirk of then engine, but if it's not I'd feel like a dope for not doing something about it.
I hate to sound like a dope, but you really don't need to worry about valve adjustment on this bike. Tons of guys have taken their magnas in for the valve adjustment and found that absolutly no adjustment was necessary. All you need to do is replace the cam chain tensioner and press on. Also stay away from the "The Bike Shop Techs" , every time you post what they are telling you it scares me; they are just after your money and for the most part none of them have ever worked on a magna because they don't break very often.
QuoteIt also requires me buying some tools like a micrometer, metric feeler guages, and allen head sockets for using on a torque wrench.
I don't know about the diffrences on the 3rd gen but IIRC you don't need a micrometer for the 1st gen valve adj. As for the metric feeler guages, I have a set you are more than weclome to borrow. And the metric allen head socktes are aprox $15.00 at Harbor Freight. I have been meaning to pick up a set of those myself.
I kind of agree with John though. Do the tentioner and see if that helps with the noise. If not then go for the valves. From everything I have read on the V4 when the valve noise goes away that is when to do the adj.
Thanks John and Kerry.
The cam chain tensioner is the easiest and cheapest thing to try that's for sure. John, should I replace both of the tensioners at the same time or just the one that's knocking?
I would personally just change the bad one. Can't see fixing what's not broken.
Mine developed a similar knock. When I put on the center stand a couple months ago I discovered it had too much oil in it. Using my MitiVac I removed a full pint. The knock went away.
If I can get myself into a better garage this winter I think I will check the chain adjuster anyway. It only has 17K miles on it but it is 10 years old. And not to well maintained.
Jesse dont worry about the valve adjustment, I have only heard of 2 that needed an adjustment, remember they are shim under bucket.
You have not changed the back pressure much with the muffler mod, removing the end plate baffle does not really open them up much, they still have the internal baffle.
You can run the muffler mod and NEVER hurt a valve especially with the shims installed.
Yeah, Greg. My plan has gotten a little simpler after the information from Jimmy. Right now my plan is to pull the front valve cover to inspect things.
I just want to make sure the chain has not been rubbing on the head, etc. There's also a replaceable chain guide in the valve cover that may have been scraped up, so I'm going to check that to see if I need to order it. I may check the valves just for the heck of it since I'll have the valve cover off, but I don't think I'll have to do anything. I'll also perform the compression test just to be extra sure.
I figure I can handle the disassembly pretty easily, plus I'll just take pictures of everything before I take it apart. :) If it's fairly straightforward once I get in there, then I'll order the parts I need and invite the Moot members over for the re-assembly. That way we can ooh and ahh, before closing it back up.