Hey guys,
I just flushed the radiator and wanted to start it up to get distilled water through the whole system and. She won't start!
Voltage from battery is 12.45v, lights look good, plenty of oil and gas,
hit the started button and it seems to engage but does nothing.
I tried pushing it in gear thinking that it should roll a little bit and the tire seems locked.
The last time I rode home the temp never got above the halfway mark but friday morning it got almost to the redline. The ride home was fine no wierd noises, hesitation, problems whatsoever.
What am I looking at here? Where shoudl I start. Not afraid of a rebuild, I've done cars before, just wasn't planning on one right now and I've really been enjoying my first ride!
When you tried pushing it ,what gear and how fast was it rolling when you let out on the clutch? It takes a pretty high gear and almost needs your body weight to keep the tire from sliding. I would start with starter connections and maybe even pull the starter to check it. If you can't get it to turn over any other way you can pull the left side cover off and turn it with a socket and breakover. Pull the plugs to reduce compression while your checking to see if you can get it to turn over.. Hope this helps, and there will be more help and tips on the way. good luck!
Well the first thing is the battery 12.45 is nominal might be dropping below 12volts when you put a load on it starting,check your ground wire. Like Charles said put it in second or third gear and get some speed up pushing try that but the first thing I always suspect the battery have seen some weird issues on my bike just because the battery was low,bad ,etc ....
One other thing I thought of driving around this morning. Over the last few weeks, very intermittently, it has lurched forward when I started it. I'd be in first typically and I had the clutch in but it lurched like it was in gear. on the first try and then would start right up 2nd time.
It does roll fine with the clutch in currently so I know that is working.
I've got a trickle charger I can put ont he battery, what should I be gettign for a voltage form it?
Well thats a motorcycle wet clutch issue and it is common mine does it and it is a 3rd Gen what happens is the oil gets pushed out of the clutch plates and they stick it is nothing to worry about. Like I said I would check the battery and connections for corrosion and that they are tight. To somewhat solve the problem with the clutch make sure that you start your bike in nuetral and warm her good pull the clutch in and put it in first gear. It might still lurch but you are not harming anything if it does. keep us updated you will get it fixed....
Ken, if your motor won't turn over manually by rolling the bike in 2nd or 3rd, there's a chance that your motor is hydro-locked (a cylinder full of gasoline won't compress). This can happen if a carburetor float or needle sticks open and the petcock is open while the bike is parked or is malfunctioning. If this is the case, pull the spark plugs and she should turn over. WARNING FIRE HAZARD: be sure there is no source of ignition (ie. spark plug wires, etc.) and do this outside.
Curtis
Update:
Battery charged up to where it's got 14v still just a single click...
I'll try rolling start in the morning, but that Hydro-lock seems like a good possibility cause she's been smelling real gassy this last week, stinking up the garage and that's a new thing.
What's the best way to insure no source of ignition?
no key in the ignition switch
wires out of the way or completely removed from bike
pull battery too?
All of the above? he he If it was me I'd just pull the spark plugs and try to put a shop rag over each hole to keep the splashing to a minimum. Tie the spark plug wires back so that thay cannot find a ground to arc to. Then either turn the motor over with the starter or push the bike while in gear. Probably no need to pull the battery.
Once you know which cylinder was full of gasoline, then you know which carb to pay attention to. You can still ride until you have time to work on the carb, but you must shut off the fuel petcock each and every time you park the bike or it may hydro-lock again.
Curtis
Hydro -Lock was the culprit!
Pulled #2 plug and it was wet so I tried turning her over and, badabing she right up woke up. I was able to ride around the block everything "normal".
One slight problem, it wasn't just gas that came squirting out but coolant as well. This is prpbably why she's beens smoking a little bit out of hte left exhaust pipe.
So what does this mean?
Well i hate to be the one but you may have a blown head gasket. This would explain the overheating in the other post I would sure keep an eye on the coolant. Was it more coolant than fuel when you blew her out???
It means it is your lucky day. Now you finally have a reason to upgrade to a V65 Magna. :lol:
Yep does sound like a head gasket, you can also slightly break loose the oil drain plug and bet coolant drips out.
Hard to tell if it was more coolant than gas but it was definately both.
What is the procedure now?
new gasket?
new heads?
The next step would be like Greg said carefully as possible loosen the oil drain plug and let a little fluid out see if coolant comes out first since water is heavier it will come out first. If you get alot of water well then either the head or cylinder has a crack in it OR your head gasket is blown but you will not know that till you pull the head... :cry: Once thats done you will know for sure....
Every crankcase I have seen with coolant in it, the water was emulsified into the oil making it look milky. There was never any visible water to drain out. In any case if there is water in the oil, you'll know it.
If it were me, I'd tear down the heads and see what is to be found. If it is as simple as a head gasket, I would replace them then replace the fluids and ride! Get a shop manual if you don't already have one. And I recommend the Honda not the Clymer manual.
Curtis
I've got a buddy who's offered to help me replace the gasket. Should I go through the trouble to do both since it's just the one cylinder.
I've got the Honda manual but I won't be able to get the weekend time for a few weeks. What's the risk of riding it till then, as it is not smoking any worse than it was before I "found" the problem?
If you there might as well do both that way you dont have to worry.
Water does not compress very good in cylinders as you found out, and if you keep riding it you could destroy things. I would fix it and not fire it up until I had it repaired.
It's just frustrating not being able to ride when the weather is so nice!!!
I was figuring on checking the compression to see if I needed to mess with the rear cylinders.
Greg is right, hydro-lock can destroy connecting rods and twist crankshafts if it hits just right. On the other hand, if your hydro-lock problem was from fuel alone and not the water it would be safe to ride as long as you turn off the petcock (and it is holding) each time you park the bike. Judgement call, but I'd say there is some risk to the bike. You could forget to close the petcock, or the water leak could get worse and cause another hydro-lock condition.
Curtis
Yeah, it was a dumb question...
I told one of the other riders at work about the headgasket and and he related the story of His uncle riding Triumph Tiger years ago which was leaking oil badly. He figured it'd be OK to ride it home and then fix it..... It locked up on him at 55mph and the only thing that saved (some of) his skin was the fact it was raining.
I'll let y'all know how it goes once we get her torn apart.
Thanks!
Gonna tear her apart this weekend....
Does anyone know if the head off an '85 is the same as the '86? There's one on ebay and I'm thinking about it.
Tried to fire it up one more time to test the compression and it was hydro-locked again. Cleared the fluid from cylinder 2 and ran the gas out of the carbs. That warmed up the engine a little bit so I tried the compression. 110 on the front two cylinders and 120 on the back two. But it was NOT up to operating temp.
Does anyone know what the compression should be when cold?
I don't know about the compression.
Don't contemplate buying a head until you tear it down far enough to know what you will need. The head could be fine.
Curtis
I just saw one on eBay for $50 and it got me thinking.
BTW what's the best way to empty the gas tank now that it's off? filler opening? petcock? I need to to test the reserve sensor and might as well do it now while it's off the bike.
I've got the radiator, exhaust, gas tank, airbox off and all those hoses loose.
There are a lot of vacuum hoses on an 86!
The carb is supposed to "come right off" now, according to the book, but it's acting like its still bolted on somewhere. Any ideas on what to do to get it loose?
Could it be the connecting hoses for the carb to heads are so old they are too hard?
Make sure the carb to intake runners boots are loose then gently pry it off, usually takes a large flatblade screwdriver or such wrapped in a towel and gently unseat the boots.
The boots get hard and it certainly makes the task much much more difficult, as it will make it even harder to get back on, replace them if they have gotten hard.
YEE HA !!!! Looks like a bad head gasket after all !!!!Here's some pictures but it looks to me and my buddy like I caught it early enough and it's just the gasket that separated at the bottom of the cylinders.
Take a look and let me know what you think.
Head with the bad gasket (http://www.strausshaus3.com/MagnaPix/HeadNGasket.JPG)
Cylinder Block (http://www.strausshaus3.com/MagnaPix/Cylinders.JPG)
Bad Gasket (http://www.strausshaus3.com/MagnaPix/BadGasket.JPG)
Left Side no gasket (http://www.strausshaus3.com/MagnaPix/LeftFront.JPG)
Right Side no gasket (http://www.strausshaus3.com/MagnaPix/RightFront.JPG)[/list]
Glad the head gasket is all you found!!!! That is great news.
Now would be the time to spruce it up if ya wanted, performance mods, etc.
AWESOME great news glad that was it !!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
Christmas time, and things move slowy in the motorcycle repair department here.
I've tried carb cleaner and then acetone with a scotchbrite pad to clean off the gasket crud and here's what it still looks like. I've put much more elbow grease inthe the right side than the left.
Any ideas of how to get that last baked on stuff off?
(http://www.strausshaus3.com/MagnaPix/Adhesive%20Residue.JPG)
Get a gasket scraper!
I've been using a single-edge razor blade. Just trying to be really careful not to damage the surface.
Gasket scrapers work well on this. They are basically like a paint scraper or putty knive, but have very stiff sharp-edged blade. Putty knives flex too much.
You might check your local auto parts store or Sears for a gasket scraper or try looking for paint scrapers at Lowes or Home Depot. A razor-blade scraper is too fragile for some of the big chunks but will work well on some of the smaller, more stubborn stuff.
Last time I did this it was all steel, it's real hard to gouge that stuff...
What do y'all recommend for head gasket coating / prep ?
Do you put em back together dry or use some wonder goo to make sure they seal good?
If motorcycle applications are the same as automotive, it is recommended that you leave the head gasket dry. Extra goop can be detrimental.
Curtis
I finally got the head/block cleaned sufficiently and found the time to put the head back on today.
All was going well till the last bold on the top right cam bracket broke instead of torqueing down all the way :x.....
The good news is the stump came out easily :D
One quirky question:
The Honda shop manual says once the chains are back on the cam gears there should be 46 pins visible from one side to the other. What's wierd is that I count 45 and the back head, which I didn't take off the bike, shows 45 as well. I'm thinking as long as the two are the same its cool. Any ideas?
Hey guys, Do you have any words of wisdom on setting valve clearances on a 1st gen like mine?
Check out the end of this thread currently going. It has helpful info on 1st gen valve adjustment.
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7044
OK New question on an OLD thread....
Torqueing the cam gear bolts. The book says to torque them to 13-14 ft/lbs. sounds good excet there is NO way to get a socket in there, to use my torque wrendh! How do you get to those bolts?
Snug them down with a wrench then rotate the engine so that the bolts are above the head where you can use a torque wrench and socket.
Quotesetting valve clearances
....... I found that bending the feeler gauge(s) about an inch from the end at a 45 and one end at a 90 degree angle you are able to get an accurate valve adjustment since the gauges won't be at an angle to increase the distance between the valve and rocker arm.
OK,
I got the rear head all the way down to where I need to pry it loose and There just ain't enough room to clear the four bolts on the perimeter of the head. Both the Honda and Clymer books say "take the head bolts out. MINOR detail the head bolts ont eh exterior of the heads on my bike are actually just shiny chrome nuts and the threaded studs stay in the block. I can't lift the rear head high enough to clear these bolts without hitting the frame! :x
I'd left it alone and would be two hours back into getting her on the road instaed now I got the back head all dissasembled for NOTHING.
Follow this link to see what it looks like (http://www.strausshaus3.com/MagnaPix/NoGo.JPG) :x
Ken, I've never removed the heads on a first gen, but I suspect there has to be a way. It may involve some rotating or lifting one side first. Sorry I can't help more.
Well, I popped the head loose from the block with a hunk of wood and a hammer so I think I've passed the point of no return and have to figure out how to get the head off so I can replace the gasket as it is probably compromised for sure now. The gasket on the front came apart in pieces when we pryed that one off. :oops:
I've got the engine out and the back head off.
See the other thread about that fun....
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1067
I've hit on a combination of carbureator cleaner spray and really sharp razor blades as the most efficient way to remove the old gasket goo. I get about three to five good passes from each razor blade before I have to replace them but when they are new like that they seem to shave the stuff off one layer at a time and don't stick to the aluminum like when they are old. It's all about the angle you hold them at.
I hope to be riding soon !!
Hey, My engine is back together!!!!!
I found out that adjusting valves is best done with four hands(get a friend to help for sure)
Now it's just re-assembly time. :D
Another question:
Can I put the carbs back on the engine while it's out and I can get to everything easier? It was a real pain getting it off the engine while it was still mounted in the bike.
We tried that on Jeff's V-65... and the answer was no. We had to pull the carb bank back off to get it into the frame. Don't know about the V45 but it may be similar.
It sure is tempting :?
YES (at least on my V65). You can take the engine out and put it back in with the carbs still attached. You need two people to guide it back in. My buddy and I had the engine on a jack and we worked together to get it in. It will go if you get the angle right. And it is a very tight fit past the frame piece up by the triple tree.
Bottom line: yes it will work if you have help and patience. If lacking either, save the headache and take the carbs off. It also helps to talk nice to the old girl.
Good luck.
Excellent. We'll know for sure after this weekend when I give it a shot !
I discovered a great way to get the carbs back on those fool boots. They look to defy the lasts of physics when you first set it on the engine.
Take the front boots completely loose from the head. place them loosly kinda cock-eyed so they tilt towards the front of the engine. Don't forget to put the bands on as loose as they go. Just clearing the back of the connectors on the head. Install the back bank on the rubber boots first and then Like Greg suggested in another thread get some help to hold the engine while you straddle it and press the whole carb assembly down. This works so much better than any of the other 100 ways I tried it today!
There are also 2 ways to the get the engine back in but they are mutually exclusive. You either go by the book and remove the rear wheel/driveshaft when you take it out or just pull the engine off the driveshaft. BUT that determines whether or not you can put it back in with the carbs on or not. I pulled it out without taking off the dricveshaft, so after a solid hour of manhandling the engine with the carbs on it we put it back on the stand removed the carbs and put it on the bike in about 10 min.....
Live & learn, live & learn :oops:
Ken, I think you've discovered it. When we were working on Jeff's V65 we had not removed the rear wheel and drive shaft. Perhaps that's why we were not able to get the engine in with the carbs ON it. So now we know the magic rule is:
Wheel off -> Carbs on.
Carbs off -> Wheel on.
;)
I thought I took enough pictures to be able to assemble this puppy without any questions but... :oops:
How does the heat shield fit? Do the clutch & gas lines go under or on top of it? Does the breather tube from the carb to the rear plastic bottle go on top or under?
And what do I do with the extra bolts, Just Kidding :roll: