Apparent Regulator Failures

[Brad Badgett]

Amen!!! Greg.  Wow!  (I'll stick to studying the sex life of Bohemian bottle caps)

Brad Badgett
OK Region

[Sledge Hammer]

Now that I an sitting in the corner in the fetal position mumbling to my self incoherently!!!!    

You smart folk just let me know when you get it all figured out and how much it will cost me to install one on my Project 96??!!!!

You must be talkin' about them other fellers. I still remember the expressions of disbelief on my college professors faces when they belatedly realized I had finally amassed enough credit hours to slide out the door.  They seemed to think I got out on a technicality.

We can change the subject back to mechanical matters such as carburetor jetting and once again I will have to content myself with sitting in silent awe at people who know useful stuff.

By the way, I didn't know Bohemian bottle caps reproduced sexually. I thought they took care of that by mitosis...

[lragan]

.... Wonder if there's a market for a bullet-proof regulators?

Well, Mike, I did a little web research:

http://www.oldbikebarn.com/Motorcycle_Parts/Rectifier-Regulator/Universal-Rectifier-Regulator

Interesting looking unit here:

http://www.shindengen.com/resources/Product/FH012%20Data.pdf

http://www.morsbikesonline.com/category/Powerbox

China is already supplying these modules:

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/razhengxu/product-detailaMzQufPoOUWZ/China-Regulator-Rectifier-ZX-W-S-003-.html

Honda specific units:

http://www.cyclewareables.com/pages/rectifiers_regulators_street_tour/rectifregulate.htm

This web site has a confirmation of the possibility of mutual interference between the charging and ignition systems:

http://www.britcycle.com/Products/332PowerUnits.htm

In particular, they post the following warning for the "Sparx" brand:


Please Note: When using SPARX regulator rectifiers you must use resisted spark plugs as circuitry is sensitive. Using unresisted plugs can cause over charging.


And if you are an IEEE member, you can dig further at:


http://www.trans-ie.uni-wuppertal.de/abs/ies46_3.html

My conclusion is that this is a rather crowded marketplace.  No doubt experienced power designers like you could come up with a better module, but getting noticed in all this hubhub would take some $$$ in promotion.  It doesn't look like a commercial opportunity to me, but then this is not my field...

If there were some way to sort through all the various offerings and establish if one is particularly reliable, that might the best we could do for our fellow MagnaDudes.

[Sledge Hammer]

Nice work, Lawrence! You are doubtlessly right. Probably why I'm not in marketing. 

[Magnum Magna]

I did a little web research:

Good links

[L J VFR]

VF750C V45  94-01                                                                                                                                               Thanks Lawrence for the info.. Looks like the R/R for  94-01  might have been the same....  Maybe they decided to change the design on 2002-2003 models....   Lance                                                               

[lragan]

Good observation, Lance.  When I return home, I will attempt to check this out with the local dealer.

Then comes the $160 question (assuming a newer design exists)...

Has the reliability improved?

[Len Averyt]

Sorry for the delay but that Airplane is eating up my time. We have to hit the tarmack by september 30 with an operating version of that fire gate controller, so last minute design fixes and issues before having the PC boards made are eating my time up!

Quickly looking at all the posts since my last post. which are too numerous for me to quote all, I'm just going to give an update on some tests I ran 2 days ago on the multi regulator design.

I built up 3, 5 amp output units and as Guy suggested, OR'd the outputs together.
I set each output at 13.5V after the "or" diode.
I began applying a dummy load until the current draw was 14.5Amps.
The AP1501 (regulators) barely got hot at all.
The "Or" diodes which by the way are 40amp "TO220 package" low drop diodes ".4V drop" didn't even get warm.
I was pumping 35VDC into the regulators and maintained 13.3V out for 5 hours and no extra heat.

I then began failing out "Shutting down" one regulator at a time of course the total current draw exceeded the parts output. Since the parts are overcurrent protected they automatically throttled back to .5Amp output I forgot the volts out but it was very low. Anyway the parts self protected as they were supposed to.

So i backed up my dummy load to 9.5 Amps with 3 connected and then failed / shutdown one. the current remained the same and voltage only slightly drooped. So the units parallel or share very well with each other.

Later i connected an ammeter to each regulator and proved the parts were current sharing within .01 amps and .1 volts.

I then purposely shorted the output of the 3 ored units directly to ground and left it that way for over 5 hours. the parts stayed cool and as soon as i removed the short the current returned back to 14.5 amps @ 13.3 V.

The reason for the tests wasn't for our application but for the aircraft firegate control. In one of the three backup modes, we are manually controlling the hydraulic valves. This mode basically connects the solenoids directly to the regulators to allow the gate to open and dump the load. we have to "know" that the power is there for this mode and so we are using 3 of these regulators to triple redundant the 2amps needed to run the valves.

Its just good for us that this can also be used for our bikes.

The system I'm going to design is going to use 6 of these regulators.
5 of them will be for redundant output to the bikes normal functions
the 6th one will provide 4.5-5 amps at 12.5V for bike auxiliary items.
I'll have an LED on each output, prior to the OR diodes to visually see if any of the regulators are off/dead.
The entire package will be 1.5" X 1.5" X 2.5" it will be potted in a plastic or aluminum "box" with no "heatsink"

BTW the unit could be way smaller and the potting material is a chemical removable just in case service is needed.

Configuring the product is just figuring out the connections to and from each of the 2 harnesses.

I should have a few working "prototype" boards for testing by end of august. any takers on real world tests?

UPDATE my projected cost with be at most 2/3 the $140 cost of the oldbikebarn universal regulator. My cost is 1/3 that. I'm not in it to make a lot of money so i'd guess about $80 give or take tops. plus it should be damn near indestructable

[L J VFR]

Can you say patent pending..  hehehe

[roboto65]

PUT ME ON THE LIST PLEASE !!!!Awesome sold here!!!

[Chad in Michigan]

there is a  pinout of the harness that goes to the regulator, in the manual page 15-2 if you didn't have that already. if you need it posted, let me know.

[L J VFR]

SomethinVFR 750 Regulator / Rectifier Cooling


As reported to the Honda VF/VFR Netlist http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr-list/
As reports of dead rectifier/regulator units for VFR 750s were on the increase, and I have a '97 VFR 750, I decided to have a good look at my unit and do some testing.

I am an electronics engineer by trade, although for the past 10 years I have been more involved in designing computer networks and moved away from component/circuit design. I live in Canberra, Australia.

Anecdotal evidence suggested that the rectifier/regulator was running very hot, and the frame around the unit was also very hot although it was unsure if it was the frame that was heating up the rectifier/regulator or vice versa.

Preliminary

First I took the bike for an hour's ride through some twisty country roads and light traffic suburbia, then I measured some temperatures with a digital thermometer.

All temperatures are Degrees Celsius. For the members of the list using Degrees F, to convert from C to F,

F = 1.8 x C + 32

e.g. 69.8C = 157.64F. Ouch!!!

Results

Ambient temp. : 26.5 C
Rectifier temp. : 69.8 C (can you believe that, no wonder it burns the F@#$ out of your finger!)
Frame temp (top rail of sub frame above rectifier) : 58.3 C (the temperature of the frame rails drops rapidly the further away from the rectifier/regulator that measurements are taken so I believe it is the rectifier/regulator that is shedding heat into the frame).
Right side rear cowling temp. : 40.2 (outside wall)
Compare

Observations

Electronic components are usually damaged by three things: excessive heat, vibration and voltage spikes.
The heat of the rectifier/regulator unit is quite high, high enough to reduce the life of the unit. If this temp is lowered it should extend the life of the unit (vibration / voltage spikes aside) IMHO.
The rectifier/regulator does not mate flush with the frame (slight air gaps) and is not transferring heat to the frame as efficiently as it could (hence the temp. differential between rectifier/regulator and the frame rail).
There is about 3.5 inches of clearance between the rectifier/regulator and the cowling on the 94+ VFR which should allow room for additional heat sinks to be fitted.
1986-89 VFRs have a substantial heat sink included as standard, 1990 models onwards do not. (This information was derived from the Haynes workshop manual).
Rectification Attempt 1

Applied heat transfer compound between rectifier/regulator and frame to remove air gaps and improve heat transfer.
Results

Ambient temp. : 26.8 C
Rectifier temp. : 64.5 C (better)
Frame temp. (top rail of sub frame above rectifier) : 62.8 C (closer to the rectifier/regulator temp.)
Right side rear cowling temp. : 40.4 (outside wall).
Compare

Rectification Attempt 2

Components

Heat transfer compound
Passive heat sink (no fan). This was a heat sink normally used for power transistors and is 1.75 inches square with "fingers" 2 inches high, made of aluminium.
Procedure

Applied heat transfer compound between rectifier/regulator and frame to remove air gaps and improve heat transfer.
Installed passive heat sink to top of rectifier/regulator with silicon rubber sealant.
Results

Ambient temp. : 27.5 C
Rectifier temp. : 55.6 C (better again)
Frame temp. (top rail of sub frame above rectifier) : 53.9 C
Right side rear cowling temp. : 46.4 (getting hotter).
Compare

Rectification Attempt 3

Components

Heat sink assembly. I decided to borrow one of the lists' suggestions and organised a Pentium PC heat sink and fan assembly (for Pentium 200). 
Heat transfer compound.
Silicon rubber sealant.
Procedure

The bottom of the rectifier/regulator has a metal plate, which is used to transfer heat to the frame. I covered this with enough heat transfer compound to fill in the air gaps between the rectifier/regulator and the frame and bolted the unit back onto the frame. 
The top of the rectifier/regulator is covered in silicon rubber to protect the components. I fixed the heat sink assembly to this with silicon rubber sealant. The heat sink / fan assembly is large enough to sit on the metal frame of the rectifier/regulator. Apply the silicon rubber sealant to the centre of the heat sink only, so as not to block the cooling fins around the rim of the heat sink. (A dab of epoxy resin can be applied to the corners of the heat sink assembly where it meets the rectifier/regulator for added adhesion).   
Power to the heat sink fan was obtained from the brake light connector (in Australia, our headlights are wired to be on when the ignition is turned on. We don't get a choice). Power for the fan can be taken from any number of points that are switched by the ignition, as the fan only draws .08 amps. The earth was taken from the bolt which fastens the rectifier/regulator to the frame.   
* The heat sink assembly is only 1 inch high and allows ample clearance to the rear cowling.

Results

Another 1 hour ride (yeah!!!) on the same roads as before, although the day had heated up from earlier.

Ambient temp. : 29.3 C
Rectifier temp. : 44.63C (yes!)
Frame temp. : 42.5 C
Right side rear cowling temp. : 29.5 (seems safe).
Compare

After all this I went out for another ride for about 2 hours with friends. When I got back I measured everything again with almost identical results.

Tentative Conclusion

The temp of the rectifier/regulator is about 28 degrees cooler with the heat transfer compound between the rectifier/regulator and the frame, and the heat sink and fan installed. That's got to be a good thing.
The rear cowling is actually a little cooler now.
This doesn't actually prove a thing, but I am personally more confident that the rectifier/regulator will last longer.
I can't believe that the unit gets that hot as standard!
If anyone has questions / reservations or concerns please raise them. There are plenty of inventive minds on the list, and we should be able to work them out.                           This is something I found on another website... seemed interesting enough..

[lragan]

The system I'm going to design is going to use 6 of these regulators.
5 of them will be for redundant output to the bikes normal functions
the 6th one will provide 4.5-5 amps at 12.5V for bike auxiliary items.
I'll have an LED on each output, prior to the OR diodes to visually see if any of the regulators are off/dead.
The entire package will be 1.5" X 1.5" X 2.5" it will be potted in a plastic or aluminum "box" with no "heatsink"

BTW the unit could be way smaller and the potting material is a chemical removable just in case service is needed.

Configuring the product is just figuring out the connections to and from each of the 2 harnesses.

I should have a few working "prototype" boards for testing by end of august. any takers on real world tests?

UPDATE my projected cost with be at most 2/3 the $140 cost of the oldbikebarn universal regulator. My cost is 1/3 that. I'm not in it to make a lot of money so i'd guess about $80 give or take tops. plus it should be damn near indestructable

Good work, Len!  Color me interested.

I would probably not use the aux output, as I am too lazy to do the wiring...

Did you have a chance to slap a 'scope on the output under the various load conditions?  It would be nice to understand the ripple frequency and amplitude from the switching regulators.

Have you thought about updating the rectifiers with your low forward drop diodes?  With three phase full wave rectifiers, the ripple should be pretty low, and I presume your switching units run fast enough to handle the ripple.  The 40 amp diodes should be sufficient, as your total current will be about 30 amps.

It occurs to me that you need to caution everyone that the alternator is rated somewhat under 400 watts.  If you used your system to full capacity, you could pull 405 watts at 13.5 volts.

I am not a whiz on battery charging, so will defer to Mike on the charging profile (see post above).  Can this design accomplish this charging technique?   I have no idea what the OEM R/R part does in this regard, but I doubt it follows Mike's recommended profile.  How important is this characteristic to battery life and capacity?

[bigdaddysnake361]

                                                  Help Me! Help Me!                           Please!I started having problems about a month ago. First the boil over so I got a new battery then it all went out my R/R burnt up literally the back of it started smoking and blew my 30amp fuse. I read one of you had the same BB mounting bracket broke as I did no Idea how maybe it's related. I fixed my box using a stuff called plastic weld. I glued the pieces together then I cut some thin pieces of plastic that fit on either side and glued them there with the same epoxy, it's held well.Also if you think about it the hot electrolite on the back of the unit can't help I'm sure it probably eats at the rubber back filler they used on mine. Someone mentioned the unit has aluminum back mine had this stuff, looked like someone poured rubber goop on it and it hardened. Anyway i got a new one through Dennis kirk and its been three weeks and i got boilover problems again. I wasn't five miles away from home and it quit on me again. Next day I discovered my battery had boiled over again and the fuse is blown. Now what? These things aren't cheap. I guess I should expect my R/R to go out again. I push a VF750C 1995.LOL. A MECHANIC friend of mine thinks I should check for a short because the alt. is being called for the extra power. But I'm gathering the alt. doesn't work that way. I need my bike as I use it for work but it would suck if it left me stranded way out there.(I work 30 miles from home.) So what, I should by another R/R from Honda or what? I know I'm gonna device some kinda shunt /cover for the back of it whatever I do, maybe with some kinda wings to help direct air flow to the unit. I wish someone had an Idea of air flow.

[Charles S Otwell]

Go back to some of the first post, before it got so high tech .. There was some talk of faulty aftermarket R/R's.
I replaced mine with an older model Honda R/R (used), haven't had any more problems so far. Good luck, hope you get it figured out.