Apparent Regulator Failures

[Sledge Hammer]

Mike, I am still dubious about mounting a fan on top (underneath, really in the stock position under the battery) of the R/R.  There is not a lot of clearance to the swing arm.  My fear is that I wouldn't even get off the ranch -- the first cattle guard would crush it.

I was just idly curious to see if anybody made a fan rated for use under the conditions to which it would be subjected in this application. Then it dawned on me that a marine supply shop would be a good place to start because fans and blowers rated fur use onboard boats have to be sealed against water. They have all sorts of uses aboard boats beyond general ventilation, including keeping engine compartments and bilges clear of hazardous fume build-up.

I have no doubt that adding a fan is a much more complicated matter than it seems like at first glance. For starters...

1) One would definitely have to verify adequate clearances before installing it, including for the wire harness which would supply power to it.

2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.

3) Protect the battery against being shorted out under a locked-rotor condition. (We don't want any exploding batteries or wire insulation burning underneath our bottoms, now, do we?)

4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.

5) Device some sort of shroud to protect other wiring from getting caught in the blades and to make sure the airflow goes where we want it.

6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.

[Capt. Howard]

Wouldn't the road temperatures as well as road makeup "asphalt /reverse lay/concrete..ect" make a significant difference as your results showed due to wind direction?..When I mentioned wind tunnel I was referring to locating the coolest point due to wind (draft) from forward movement...thus giving you a better starting point for relocation with maximum benefit. Not gigging efforts towards a possible solution to problem...Just interested and commented in humor..I guess if I took the windshield off my bike it would be stock...LOL...Good Luck

[TLRam1]

Wouldn't the road temperatures as well as road makeup "asphalt /reverse lay/concrete..ect" make a significant difference as your results showed due to wind direction?..When I mentioned wind tunnel I was referring to locating the coolest point due to wind (draft) from forward movement...thus giving you a better starting point for relocation with maximum benefit. Not gigging efforts towards a possible solution to problem...Just interested and commented in humor..I guess if I took the windshield off my bike it would be stock...LOL...Good Luck

You know where Lawrence put his aux lights  good wind location for cooling.

[TLRam1]

1) One would definitely have to verify adequate clearances before installing it, including for the wire harness which would supply power to it.

Yes, this does need further checking. Initially I thought no way, after working on mine and seeing the ratio of closure when I move the swigarm in position, I'm not sure.

2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.

I would let it run continuously.

3) Protect the battery against being shorted out under a locked-rotor condition. (We don't want any exploding batteries or wire insulation burning underneath our bottoms, now, do we?)

In-line fuse would take care of this.

4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.

None needed if fused.

5) Device some sort of shroud to protect other wiring from getting caught in the blades and to make sure the airflow goes where we want it.

No wires in the area.

6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.

I don't think this would be an issue, I use a AGM sealed battery, they can and in one of my bikes are mounted on their side, nothing to leak out. Even on a flooded battery I believe there is too much air circulated and not enclosed where this would be a problem.

[lragan]

Wouldn't the road temperatures as well as road makeup "asphalt /reverse lay/concrete..ect" make a significant difference as your results showed due to wind direction?..When I mentioned wind tunnel I was referring to locating the coolest point due to wind (draft) from forward movement...thus giving you a better starting point for relocation with maximum benefit. Not gigging efforts towards a possible solution to problem...Just interested and commented in humor..I guess if I took the windshield off my bike it would be stock...LOL...Good Luck

You raise a valid point.  To be precise, it would be better to have a second thermocouple in the airstream, like out front of the bike, so we could tell the temperature of the ambient air "in situ", as it were.  My assumption that the ambient is more or less constant throughout the ride may not be true.  It would require some effort, but it is possible to rig two thermocouples in a way that one serves as a reference for the other -- meaning that you can read out the differential directly. 

Problem is, I took the original data with the same setup I have shown for the relocated data -- same regulator, same instrument, same bike, same bozo riding it.  I am not willing to put the R/R back to its original location to redo the reference measurements with a differential measurement setup.  Too much work for what I believe would be a marginal improvement in precision -- another way of saying I'm just too lazy -- 

[TLRam1]

another way of saying I'm just too lazy -- 

and we don't have Honda footing the bill and use of their shop.

[Charles S Otwell]

This is a long thread and this question has probably already been addressed but I'll ask anyway, how does sitting in the direct sunlight on extremely hot days affect the cooling process? I'm assuming (but not knowing) that the R/R gets hotter in the direct sunlight, opposed to underneath out of the direct sun. I'm asking this because a lot of my riding is around town where traffic is slow and the bike sits in the sun when it's not running and doesn't move fast enough from light to light or place to place to create much air flow. It's probably a dumb question  but answer it anyway .. Oh yeah, please ..

[lragan]

There are no dumb questions, Charles -- only dumb answers, of which this may be one.

Since it is black, the R/R will absorb energy from the sun, for sure.  What fraction of the total energy load it suffers is an open question.

My guess is that the only time it will make much difference is when the sun is low in the sky.  Early mornings are probably not an issue, but late afternoon may be.  Four to five p.m. is probably the worst case.

I have reviewed my route (from the last two experiments) and the sun direction.  In particular, I saw no significant difference coming or going to Kyle with the bags removed, and the sun was incident on the R/R for a long stretch going over, but not coming back.  The wind was calm in both directions.  It was not that late in the day, however (in the early afternoon).

Perhaps I will run a static experiment this afternoon late, time permitting.

My guess is that you are still better off with the relocated position.  By far the largest temperature rise in the stock location occurs when the bike is still -- substantially more than accrues to the relocated spot -- the temperature shot up with the bike not running when the R/R is located adjacent the engine under the seat.  This phenomenon was totally absent with the relocated case.

[lragan]

If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.

Here ya go, Terry -- only $25...

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772

[L J VFR]

I apologize, but I still am not understanding your data Lawrence.  I'm looking at your numbers and am not getting it.   I'm seeing what Terry is/was seeing.      I even pulled up a celsius to fahrenheit cheat sheet off of google.      It looks like the numbers are close or even hotter in the new relocation.     Go ahead, call me stupid.   

[Capt. Howard]

If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.

Here ya go, Terry -- only $25...

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772

Harbor Freight...Got to Love them...The Wal-Mart of mens Tools and Stuff..
Lawrence...I'm eventualy going to relocate my r/r like you did. Just want your imput on putting a plate behind it sorta like Terry did..No your not being Lazy...Your doing a Good Dead for all of us who Appreciate your Talent..

[Sledge Hammer]

1) One would definitely have to verify adequate clearances before installing it, including for the wire harness which would supply power to it.

Yes, this does need further checking. Initially I thought no way, after working on mine and seeing the ratio of closure when I move the swigarm in position, I'm not sure.

2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.

I would let it run continuously.

Depending on the fan, that's anywhere from 13 to 30 watts of extra power being drawn off the system. You may be draining down your battery doing that, depending on what other loading you have.

3) Protect the battery against being shorted out under a locked-rotor condition. (We don't want any exploding batteries or wire insulation burning underneath our bottoms, now, do we?)

In-line fuse would take care of this.

Yep.

4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.

None needed if fused.

Not necessarily. In the event of alternator failure, it would be nice to shut off the fan without having to hunt for the fuse. (And, yes, I think the legal requirement for an always-on headlight is assinine for that very reason.) When that has happened to me with four-wheelers, being able to shed all the electrical load has made the difference between being stranded in a dangerous location vs being able to limp the vehicle to a safe place to have it towed or serviced.

5) Device some sort of shroud to protect other wiring from getting caught in the blades and to make sure the airflow goes where we want it.

No wires in the area.

6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.

I don't think this would be an issue, I use a AGM sealed battery, they can and in one of my bikes are mounted on their side, nothing to leak out. Even on a flooded battery I believe there is too much air circulated and not enclosed where this would be a problem.

I am thinking worst-case scenarios, not typical.

[TLRam1]

If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.

Here ya go, Terry -- only $25...

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772

Thanks, I printed this one out along with another I found that also has a tach.

[TLRam1]

2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.

I would let it run continuously.

Depending on the fan, that's anywhere from 13 to 30 watts of extra power being drawn off the system. You may be draining down your battery doing that, depending on what other loading you have.

Looking at the charts, the fan you found uses, depending on size 1-4.5 watts, very little in the big picture considering your headlight at 55-65 watts and your tail light at ??I forgot. I run a pair of lights that pull 110 watts total and they are seldom ever cut off be it idling or traveling which again someone running 100 watts of lights for most of the life of the bike has not had a failure yet. More advantageous to cut your headlight than worry with a fan. When my battery was going dead on a trip back home it was nice to cut the extra lights.    


4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.

None needed if fused.

Not necessarily. In the event of alternator failure, it would be nice to shut off the fan without having to hunt for the fuse. (And, yes, I think the legal requirement for an always-on headlight is assinine for that very reason.) When that has happened to me with four-wheelers, being able to shed all the electrical load has made the difference between being stranded in a dangerous location vs being able to limp the vehicle to a safe place to have it towed or serviced.

I think I responded to this above.


6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.

I don't think this would be an issue, I use a AGM sealed battery, they can and in one of my bikes are mounted on their side, nothing to leak out. Even on a flooded battery I believe there is too much air circulated and not enclosed where this would be a problem.

I am thinking worst-case scenarios, not typical.

The fans you found are brushless, I think magnetic fields are what make them turn, no sparks.

[lragan]

Thanks, I printed this one out along with another I found that also has a tach.

Terry, I double bought in this area.  I think I ordered the one with the tach you refer to, then found the one I actually used at the local store.  I don't remember returning the "automotive" one.  Before you order, let me look.  I may have already given it away...