v65 Magna vs Harley Davidson Night Rod Special

[MarylandMagnav45]

Hey MOOT:

Well, I'm hoping with my luck (ha! good joke there), I'll be getting a job before December rolls around with benefits.

I'll probably be moving to NYC area if this job comes through.

I plan on keeping my v45 Magna b/c its such an efficient commuter (50mpg +).

However, I have that itch to get another motorcycle.

I really like the Harley Davidson vrod lineup...esp. the Night Rod Special for what it offers in terms of hp, turning capability, looks, etc.. 240 rear tire..etc...

Although, I'll be working for a company that could fire me anytime so I don't want to pile up huge debt like other 20 y/o's my age like to do with mustangs, apartments, toys, etc... and then lose my job .

So, since I see so many v65 Magna's going for $1500-$3000, on craigslist...I'm thinking since a used Night Rod Special runs around $14,000, I could save a bunch with the same goals by purchasing a v65 Magna, and spend like 1k on customizing my ride.  If I purchase a V65 Magna, I want to change it to NOT look like a V65 Magna...since the V65 Magna looks like my V45 Magna.

My main reason for posting this topic is...

HOW DO YOU TELL if the V65 Magna you're purchasing has the infamous cam-oil issue?

I think the problem was fixed in the 1985/1986 models...maybe someone can correct me on this?  Trapper? Cowboy?

In terms of customization, I want to hot rod it.  I want my v45 for commuting purposes (gas saver, touring, yada yada), and my v65 for hot rod purposes.

Also, to restate what I said above, I'd like to customize it to look different than most v65 Magna's...and i don't mean like a Harley...

I'd like it to be low, different exhausts, mean looking...

Any ideas?

Let me know.

Thanks.

[silveradocowboy]

HOW DO YOU TELL if the V65 Magna you're purchasing has the infamous cam-oil issue?

The only way I know is to pull the valve cover and look at the cams. Check for pits and the majority of the cam face being discolored to a copper-ish color.

I think the problem was fixed in the 1985/1986 models...maybe someone can correct me on this?  Trapper? Cowboy?

After looking into this for years I don't think anyone is certain when they were "fixed". I have heard, and repeated, that the problem was solved when Honda started line boring the heads in '87. You can tell a line bored engine by looking for the half moon rubber gaskets on the side of the head inline with the camshafts. Others say it is the soft camshafts that came in the early models ('82, '83), bad oil circulation, low oil flow at idle, etc. IMO it could be one or the other or even all. I have an '85 and it hasn't shown any problems.

Here is a link to some info...
http://www.nonsolonews.net/thread-68-0-8625-38/1983-vf750s-83-v45-sabre.htm

http://users.metro2000.net/~cdc/magna/tech section and issues/cams/v65 society cam page.htm
   -or-
http://users.metro2000.net/~cdc/magna/tech%20section%20and%20issues/cams/v65%20society%20cam%20page.htm

http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/V4_PB.html

[MarylandMagnav45]

Thanks cowboy.

" But there are less complicated ways you can help slow the onset of chewed cams (while of course using the updated valve adjustment procedure and special tool and so on as described above).

   1. Use premium quality oil, such as BelRay or Golden Spectro. Don't use 20W50. You need the pumpability of 10W40 on start-up.
   2. Change it a lot. Temperature and gearbox thrashing break down oil. Every 1500 to 2000 miles would be nice, although if you're using a synthetic, perhaps you can extend this.
   3. Avoid extended idling. Long idles mean heat buildup and low oilflow because of relatively low pressure feed to the heads.
   4. Don't cruise around in top gear at 3000 rpm. Again, oil flow.
   5. Use premium gasoline. Prevents detonation; burns cooler.
   6. Install the upgraded oil supply lines if available for your model. Consult Phil's articles for description and part numbers, as well as ways to improve on them.
   7. Do the rejetting and/or manual radiator fan mods described above.

Bolded above, what does that mean?

I always cruise in top gear around 2-4000 RPM to achieve best mpg.

My 85 magna is in the "affected" years but no oil issue .... 'i think'.

I can only guess my Magna now has 45,000 miles ( i bought it with 22,000).


"

[silveradocowboy]

It means that under 3k rpm the oil supply to the heads is not sufficient to keep the cams cool and causing premature wear to the softer cams.

snipped from Wiki...
"As well, unlike the larger displacement V-four motors, the VF500 did not suffer from the oil cooling issues of the larger V-four motors (the larger displacement engines would not send sufficient oil to the cam lobes under 3,000 rpm, causing premature wear), yet the VF500 was still phased out as Honda reworked its technical designs for all its VF motors and cut down on its number of competing models in the market to keep from cannibalizing its sales. Today the bikes have a small but loyal following for their great handling and reliability."

[MarylandMagnav45]

It means that under 3k rpm the oil supply to the heads is not sufficient to keep the cams cool and causing premature wear to the softer cams.

Wow.  If that's true, and it is happening on my V45 Magna... I guess I'll either stay in 5th gear, or always drive at 40 mph or higher (3k rpm or higher in 6th gear). 

I have said many times on here that I love riding on country roads or in town in 6th gear at around 2k rpm...getting best gas mileage, and loving the way it sounds with my exhaust. 

I never knew I could be damaging my cams.  Ouch.

[hootmon]

I agree with this philosophy on my 94 Gen 3 as well.. Since it has a known cam bearing issue and the TSB was never performed, I always try to run higher than 3K and usually 3.5K or higher.. Even if It did not have the issue, it is a good rule for all 4 cylinder 750 (Nighthawk too). The per cylinder size is small and running it with low RPM's puts undue stress on the little motor with minimal oil flow.. Little 4 bangers tend to like to run and higher RPM's are not bad for them (within reason) and make the load easier on the engine.. This has been my thinking for quite a while and is my opinion as well as other (mechanic types) I have talked too.. Gas mileage versus engine long life, I'll go with the long life!
Shoot holes in my opinion if you would like..

I also run my Idle RPM at 1000, but I believe the book calls for 750 - But I hope I circulate a little more oil while sitting at long stop lights, or waiting in the driveway for my wife to get read to go...

[MarylandMagnav45]

I agree with this philosophy on my 94 Gen 3 as well.. Since it has a known cam bearing issue and the TSB was never performed, I always try to run higher than 3K and usually 3.5K or higher.. Even if It did not have the issue, it is a good rule for all 4 cylinder 750 (Nighthawk too). The per cylinder size is small and running it with low RPM's puts undue stress on the little motor with minimal oil flow.. Little 4 bangers tend to like to run and higher RPM's are not bad for them (within reason) and make the load easier on the engine.. This has been my thinking for quite a while and is my opinion as well as other (mechanic types) I have talked too.. Gas mileage versus engine long life, I'll go with the long life!
Shoot holes in my opinion if you would like..

I also run my Idle RPM at 1000, but I believe the book calls for 750 - But I hope I circulate a little more oil while sitting at long stop lights, or waiting in the driveway for my wife to get read to go...

Interesting information, Harry.

Did I mention you look like my neighbor next door?

In other news,

my idle RPM is 1500 per book.


"The per cylinder size is small and running it with low RPM's puts undue stress on the little motor with minimal oil flow.."

Can you explain this further? I guess I dont' understand how the v4 works to circulate oil?  I thought low RPM = long engine life.

I guess I won't feel bad since I generally do run higher except when i'm enjoying my time going slow.

I usually shift at around 5000 RPM unless I'm shooting for best gas mileage. 

I usually hit around 8000 RPM weekly , and let's say 10000 RPM monthly

[hootmon]

Interesting information, Harry.

Did I mention you look like my neighbor next door?
      ????



"The per cylinder size is small and running it with low RPM's puts undue stress on the little motor with minimal oil flow.."
    Imagine you have to walk up an incline of six feet.. how many steps would you like to make the height change?? Imagine if I give you two steps, then each step has a rise of 3', this is going to be a little hard "work" to do... Now imagine I give you six steps, now each step is 1', this is going to be pretty easy, right??? Less work, less stress on your muscles and bones and joints, right?
OK, lets make sure you understand about engines a little (No offense meant here!)
For every revolution of your V-4 700cc motor, you get two cylinder bangs (the other two cylinders are exhausting spent fuel), the next revolution two more bangs (the ones that were exhausting before), but their fire cracker size bangs.
For every revolution of a V-2 (twin) 1400cc motor you get one cylinder bangs, then next revolution one more bang, but these are M80 size bangs.
So let's say (and it may not be true) that four fire cracker size bangs equal one M80, so the V-4 is going to have to go around two times to put out the same amount of work as once on the V-twin.

Now use a 6 foot hill that you want to climb with your motorcycle as an example. What is going to happen if you try to get your engine to lift the full 6 feet on one cylinder Bang?? You will probably break something in your motor.. One cylinder lifting 600 lbs up 6 feet that's a LOT of work.. But instead, if we let the motor Bang 100 times (200 times around) to lift 6 feet, now EACH bang only has to lift 1/100th of 6 feet, this is much less work, right?? (Note: the total amount of work (lifting 6') is being accomplished - it's just being accomplished with smaller steps)
SO, the faster your engine turns, really the less work each cylinder is working to climb a hill, maintain speed, etc..
NOW the flip side, the faster the engine turns, the more heat it generates - more bangs, more heat and also increased friction on parts!!!, but ALSO the Oil Pump is turning faster, so more oil to lubricate and cool parts down, also the Water Pump is turning faster - more water to cool things down..
Remember the question about making one cylinder lift the 6' hill? How much oil got pumped to the bearings and rings, etc in this example? All that work and almost no oil, right? That can't be good!, but 100 bangs to do 6', now we got some oil pumping while the work is being accomplished.. Same amount of work, but a lot more oil and radiator fluid.

Can you explain this further? I guess I dont' understand how the v4 works to circulate oil?  I thought low RPM = long engine life.
   See above, use good oil and let it circulate, and don't over work the engine (load not RPM's). The faster the engine turns, the more oil you get (to a point), there is an oil pressure regulator that does NOT let the pressure get beyond a certain point, otherwise the oil filter would explode, etc.

I guess I won't feel bad since I generally do run higher except when i'm enjoying my time going slow.

I usually shift at around 5000 RPM unless I'm shooting for best gas mileage. 
   This actually sounds about right.. Shift at 4500 to 5000 and you will stay above the 3500 RPM on the fall off of RPM's in the next gear.

I usually hit around 8000 RPM weekly , and let's say 10000 RPM monthly -
   This is good also... If you never stretch the engine out, you can build up a groove in your cylinder walls, then when you stretch it, the rings bang against this lip on the walls

[MarylandMagnav45]

great explanation Harry.

Really helped.

and yes,  you do look like my neighbor next door...very surprising hahaha. 

He doesn't ride though, and he has a mazda with a rotary engine.  Sporty and slow....like a SPORTSTER!

[screamin meme]

Best thing so you know there will be no, or no more wear is to just put a DD oil mod kit on and forget about it. 

[Lurkin]

Hoot, 3rd Gen idle is supposed to be 1000-1100 rpm.....

[dgc67]

Dan,
You can get an oil mod to alleviate your worries of riding at low rpms damaging the cams.

Something to think HARD about on the V65.  It is an OLD bike and WILL have issues.  These can be costly, especially if your not mechanically inclined.  Things WILL break/go bad.  ESPECIALLY if you hot rod it.

[MarylandMagnav45]

Dan,
You can get an oil mod to alleviate your worries of riding at low rpms damaging the cams.

Something to think HARD about on the V65.  It is an OLD bike and WILL have issues.  These can be costly, especially if your not mechanically inclined.  Things WILL break/go bad.  ESPECIALLY if you hot rod it.

waiting for a job...