Starting issue...

hootmon · November 30, 2014, 07:00:33 PM

OK.. You can answer Starter Clutch now, or after you read this...

'94 Magna

I have a starting issue, and it's a little odd...

Sometimes when I turn on the key, and press the start button.. I hear the Solenoid click, but nothing from the starter..
What I Have found though.. If I put the bike in Gear and Bump the engine a little, then the bike starts right up..
Doesn't seem to be related to Kickstand, Kill, nor Clutch Switches..

So, What do you think might be the best place to start on this issue..

Thanx in advance..

Jerry G Turner · November 30, 2014, 07:10:51 PM

Starter selonoid go ahead get another one.

hootmon · November 30, 2014, 08:23:15 PM

Quote from: Jerry G Turner on November 30, 2014, 07:10:51 PM
Starter selonoid go ahead get another one.

I hear the Solenoid clicking fine, and bumping the Engine just a bit seems to clear the issue...
Why would moving the engine rotation a little clear a Solenoid problem??
Doesn't seem like a Solenoid issue... But could be wrong...

Is Jerry on the right path?

LIMagna · December 01, 2014, 07:56:59 AM

Usually issues with the the starter clutch are noisy (to say the least) so if you're simply not getting anything it could be an electrical (contact, loose wire) sort of thing. However, you wouldn't think moving the engine around a bit would affect that at all either.

Smoked U · December 01, 2014, 08:04:32 AM

When it manifests the problem, check for voltage from the starter terminal to ground with the key on and the starter button pushed. If there is none, then check for continuity across the contacts of the solenoid switch (the ones that conduct the heavy current to the starter). No continuity? Take the solenoid apart and clean the contacts or replace the switch. You could also run a heavy cable direct from the battery and touch it off to the starter positive terminal and see if the starter turns.

I don't know why bumping the engine in gear would have any effect. The starter is not engaged with the flywheel, so it can't move the internals of the starter if there happened to be an open circuit in the starter circuitry.

My guess is jarring the engine a bit is getting a contact or bad cable connection to hook up temporarily so the circuit is complete.

I hate electrical gremlins.

hootmon · January 08, 2015, 05:34:22 PM

Dirty commutator in the starter..

One brush was 1/2 the length of the other..
Purchased Rebuild kit.
Took starter apart..
Sand blasted all of the outside components
Replaced bushing and oil seal
Put armature on a shaft turner we have at work (very slow lathe) and took a fine sanding belt (by hand, belt not turning) and cleaned up the commutator.
Installed new brush plate and new gaskets
Put it all back together and installed back on the bike..
Works Great...

Ron Ayers has the starter for $530.00
Rebuild kit and a little love = $18.00

A little difference..

Hey the starter failed at 31K miles, but it is 20 years old...

TLRam1 · January 09, 2015, 12:06:12 AM

Thanks for the follow-up, sounds like a story from the seventies, didn't know they had starter rebuild kits in 2015.

hootmon · January 09, 2015, 05:37:17 AM

The picture does NOT show the actual, but similar - this is the ad.

SMU9141 is the kit you need
Starter
Rebuild kit

LIMagna · January 09, 2015, 06:22:48 AM

I'll be making a note of that (just in case) ... thanks for the follow up!

hootmon · January 09, 2015, 07:05:51 AM

Quote from: LIMagna on January 09, 2015, 06:22:48 AM
I'll be making a note of that (just in case) ... thanks for the follow up!

I added the word starter to my above post..
So, if you ever need one, just come here and do a search.
That's why I put in the part number, because 6 months from now, the ad won't work

lragan · January 09, 2015, 09:45:47 AM

Hoot, it has been a few decades since I rebuilt a rotating DC machine -- so take this for what it is worth.

You did not mention in your post whether you undercut the insulation between the contacts on the commutator after you turned it. If you did not, it may not last long. Carbon and/or copper deposits on the insulators will short one contact pair to another, reducing torque, and eventually it will fail. The insulation needs to be well below the surface of the copper contacts to work over the long term.

hootmon · January 09, 2015, 03:58:34 PM

Quote from: lragan on January 09, 2015, 09:45:47 AM
Hoot, it has been a few decades since I rebuilt a rotating DC machine -- so take this for what it is worth.

You did not mention in your post whether you undercut the insulation between the contacts on the commutator after you turned it. If you did not, it may not last long. Carbon and/or copper deposits on the insulators will short one contact pair to another, reducing torque, and eventually it will fail. The insulation needs to be well below the surface of the copper contacts to work over the long term.

Thanx for pointing this out..
1) I did not cut the commutator (some people do).. I just used a very fine sand paper (think emery cloth)and scrubbed off all of the build up brush material off of the copper.
2) there was still a significant gap between the top of the copper and the isolation material that was between each copper pedal
3) I took a clean toothbrush and spray contact cleaner and cleaned all of the material out between the copper pedals

You do have to be careful of the solvents you use to clean the armature. You don't want anything that can weaken the lacquer that insulates all of the coils.
I basically didn't need to clean the winding section of the starter at all, it was nice and clean as it doesn't actually touch anything. I only needed to clean up the commutator that the brushes ride on.

lragan · January 09, 2015, 07:22:43 PM

OK, cool. If the commutator is worn unevenly, one needs to turn it true, to prevent wearing the brushes in their guides. If one takes off much, then undercutting the insulation is necessary. That you have a significant height difference should be fine. By the way, I found it much easier to chuck the armature and turn it that to cut the insulation down. A real PITA...

I think it is great that you were able to fix it for a modest cost. Good show!

hootmon · January 09, 2015, 09:00:05 PM

Quote from: lragan on January 09, 2015, 07:22:43 PM
OK, cool. If the commutator is worn unevenly, one needs to turn it true, to prevent wearing the brushes in their guides. If one takes off much, then undercutting the insulation is necessary. That you have a significant height difference should be fine. By the way, I found it much easier to chuck the armature and turn it that to cut the insulation down. A real PITA...

I think it is great that you were able to fix it for a modest cost. Good show!

There were some height differences, but radially, so the brushes should wear into the variances, the commutator should be reasonably round at any given spot.
I believe the starter it's not like a Generator in that it does not spin all the time, only when energized.