LED Tail Lights

hootmon · May 28, 2016, 06:34:13 PM

Quote from: lragan on May 28, 2016, 12:21:53 PM
Hoot, I notice two things on the links you include:

1) It appears that the gentleman has a 3rd gen bike, just from the photo of the triple tree and handlebars -- look very familiar. Not certain, just my best guess. I am not certain, but I think he is referring to LEDs for illumination of his tach and speedo -- not his indicator lights.

2) The replacement from superbright... states that it operates on 9-14.8 V. I don't think this will work in series with your LED turn signals. Both of them require the higher voltage, and they will not share in any way I can imagine. It will work great if you run the extra wire from the flasher.

I've never had to replace one of these bulbs.. I hope the ones I linked to are the correct bulbs (confirmed by anyone who has actually looked at these.)

Looking at the wiring, there looks like there is 2 connections, 1) to the left blinker, 1) to the right blinker.. I am guessing it is getting a ground at the blinker as it doesn't seem like there is a ground going to the bulb itself..
SO, will I need to split the feed wire from the flasher to both sides of the bulb? Hummm... OR do I run it to one side of the bulb and ground the other lead, since the flasher power should be on whether it's left or right?
Is there a chance the Electronic flasher is actually constantly flashing, but there is just no path to ground until the switch is pushed???

If they are.. Should I get 3 white ones, or should I get a green one, a yellow one and a blue one..
It would be nice to be able to see the high beam light in the daytime, but NOT have it too bright at night, so this is why I would consider the blue one instead of white..
Any opinions?

lragan · May 28, 2016, 08:33:10 PM

Hoot, I actually found a pencil for the first time in years -- to trace out the wiring diagram as it pertains to turn signals, without everything else. I completely misread the wiring diagram with all the other wires there. How about we sort this out with two simple experiments?

Let's start with your assumption that the indicator bulb returns to ground through the side not blinking. If this is true, then if you remove the bulbs from one side and turn on the blinkers to the other side, the indicator should not light at all. If this is how it works, then it must be a high impedance (low current draw) filament bulb, and the current through the unenergized turn signal bulbs is not enough to light them. It would also mean that your LED turn signal "bulbs" draw much less current when not energized than filament bulbs. This makes sense -- until the filament gets hot, it is almost a dead short. If this is how it works, you can continue to use the filament bulb if you like, and you will NOT burn it out by simply grounding one side and feeding the other directly from your electronic flasher. My previous warning is invalid under this scenario, which is most likely, now that I have examined the schematic more closely. It still doesn't mean that you can simply put in an LED indicator that requires 9-14.8 volts to work. Goofy things will happen to the unused turn signals and/or the indicator.

The mechanical "clicker" flasher requires current to blink (it is just a bimetalic strip that moves when it heats). For an electronic flasher to emulate this operation, it must have a current sensor in it to know when it is loaded, and begin to flash. You can also check this out by simply putting a tester across it and watch what happens with the blinker switch off and then left or right.

So, I rather imagine that your interpretation is correct. Ground one side of the indicator socket, feed the other to the flasher output -- after confirming that your understanding, and now my corrected understanding, is right.

The only drawback to this arrangement that I know is that you will not have an indication on the "dash" that your turn signals are inoperative. The way we both think it is wired with filament bulbs provides a confusing check -- if one side goes out, the indicator will fail when you signal the other way. I think both bulbs would have to fail for this to happen, and I rather imagine the rider would notice.

In any case, a careful pre-ride check should confirm if the turn signals, and the indicator light, work...

Smoked U · May 29, 2016, 07:29:50 PM

Is it possible that the indicator is wired in series so that when a bulb is out on a turn signal you would know since the indicator would not light up?

hootmon · May 30, 2016, 07:14:30 AM

Quote from: Smoked U on May 29, 2016, 07:29:50 PM
Is it possible that the indicator is wired in series so that when a bulb is out on a turn signal you would know since the indicator would not light up?

Yes, that is part of what Lawrence was saying.. So since I know have all LED's, the indicator on the dash (triple Tee) is very dim because the LED draws so little current, or limits the current being a diode, or??
More interestingly, it appears one side of the bulb is connected to the left blinker and one side is connected to the right blinker - The question being.. Where is the ground?

Jerry G Turner · May 30, 2016, 08:30:59 AM

The ground is under your feet lol🤔

TLRam1 · May 30, 2016, 08:54:41 PM

Quote from: Jerry G Turner on May 30, 2016, 08:30:59 AM
The ground is under your feet lol🤔

hootmon · May 30, 2016, 08:57:01 PM

Quote from: Jerry G Turner on May 30, 2016, 08:30:59 AM
The ground is under your feet lol🤔

I've tried connecting my wires to that ground.. I find it severely limits my riding range.

lragan · May 30, 2016, 09:20:52 PM

Hoot, the current flows from the blinking side, through the indicator bulb, then through the unlighted filament of the opposite side to ground. Since there is very little current through the indicator bulb, it does not light the other side, just uses it as a return path. So, if both of the opposite side bulbs are out, the indicator will not light. Because the resistance of the unlighted bulbs are so low, I think that both of them would have to be out for the indicator not to light.

This is not the way I would have designed this system, but then, I didn't do it. I don't think the "alert" function by-product of this scheme has much value. I mean really, if both your turn signals are out on one side, would you not notice that? And would you know that the side opposite the side you selected was at fault?

Why not just admit going in that the indicator light only means the flasher is working, and be done with it?

I have not had time to run the tests I suggested on my own bikes, and encourage you to run them if you can separate the time. I thought once before that I understood what was going on, only to be proven wrong...

BTW, I may have missed it, but if you still have the info on the flasher unit you have installed, I would like to see it. I am probably going to follow you down this path...

hootmon · May 31, 2016, 05:38:01 AM

Quote from: hootmon on May 28, 2016, 06:34:13 PM

They have different color LED's

Should I get 3 white ones, or should I get a green one, a yellow one and a blue one..
It would be nice to be able to see the high beam light in the daytime, but NOT have it too bright at night, so this is why I would consider the blue one instead of white..
Any opinions?

Lawrence you asked about the flasher - I believe THIS is the one, but you would have to verify the connector type. The company sells a couple of configurations.

Lawrence - You didn't weigh in on your opinion on the LED colors I asked above.. I'm interested in your opinion..

lragan · May 31, 2016, 08:42:55 AM

Hoot, I didn't offer an opinion on color because that is not my expertise. I do recall from my days flying light aircraft that we were careful to use only red lights in the cockpit at night so as not to desensitize our eyes to the lights of other aircraft we needed to see. Whether this is still done, or is effective, I don't know. And...one of the wingtip lights one needed to identify was --- yes, RED. Go figure.

I would not go with white, because it is made by re-emission of the LED light that excites a phosphor, but otherwise, I have no well informed preference.

Thanks for the link. Will check it out.

lragan · May 31, 2016, 03:06:51 PM

Hoot, I ran the simple test of removing the opposite side bulbs just now. As predicted, removing one bulb has no discernible effect on indicator brightness. Removing both bulbs disables it completely.

So, the ground return is through the unlit bulbs on the opposite side, as we hypothesized. Since the filament indicator is dim with the LED replacement turn signal lights, I suspect that with only one of these lights in place it will be much dimmer -- unlike the low resistance of the unused filaments, where either one is enough.

The amber indicator on the triple tree is due to an amber lens and a white filament bulb. If you use the same lens, you might try a red LED to get a deeper orange. Don't know if that will satisfy your day/ night criteria, but that is where I would start. I suspect that any white LED you put in will be brighter than you want.

hootmon · May 31, 2016, 07:09:29 PM

Quote from: lragan on May 31, 2016, 03:06:51 PM
Hoot, I ran the simple test of removing the opposite side bulbs just now. As predicted, removing one bulb has no discernible effect on indicator brightness. Removing both bulbs disables it completely.

So, the ground return is through the unlit bulbs on the opposite side, as we hypothesized. Since the filament indicator is dim with the LED replacement turn signal lights, I suspect that with only one of these lights in place it will be much dimmer -- unlike the low resistance of the unused filaments, where either one is enough.

The amber indicator on the triple tree is due to an amber lens and a white filament bulb. If you use the same lens, you might try a red LED to get a deeper orange. Don't know if that will satisfy your day/ night criteria, but that is where I would start. I suspect that any white LED you put in will be brighter than you want.

I'm not too worried about the blinker, nor the Neutral lights..
I know about the red light not effecting night vision, neither does green.. I do find it odd that so many vehicle have chosen to go with blue dash lights. I find that blue is terrible on night vision.. With that.. The brights indicator is Blue.. SO.. I might go with a blue LED for that hoping it might be a bit less bright with the blue plastic indicator cover..
So, after testing, as I suspected, the flasher really flash ALL the time and only when you flip the switch and provide a path to ground do you see the flashing on the indicator.. This being the case, how can I use the switch on the handle bar to create a path to ground for he indicator?

Better go look at the schematic some more...

lragan · May 31, 2016, 08:03:28 PM

So the flasher never stops -- hmmm, I can see why they do it that way -- cheap (and a bit dirty, IMO).

I think what I will do, when I get to this, is wire in a couple of small, ordinary, ("switching") diodes. Cut the wires that go to the indicator lamp somewhere on the triple tree. Tie the correct (cathode) end of the LED to ground return -- the other indicators must have one -- and the other (anode) end of the LED to the cathodes of both the aforementioned diodes. The anode of one diode goes to the wire which feeds the left turn signal LED and the anode of the other goes to the right turn signal LED. These two extra diodes form an OR circuit with the LED as load, so either flashing buss will light the indicator LED on the triple tree, but current cannot flow backward through the diode to light the turn signals on the other side.

hootmon · May 31, 2016, 08:47:56 PM

The mod seems more simple than what I came up with (not much surprise there!)
I think I'll try it with the existing bulb 1st, it should work with either a LED or bulb..

LateStart · May 31, 2016, 09:49:55 PM

I just purchased a long strip of 12V leds. I cut 3 of the off and solder leads to them. I fish the leads through the blinkers into the wiring and splice into the desired function. I put 3 each in the rear blinkers and create running lights and beef up the stop light with about 6. makes a big difference.