When I picked up my '94 magna it already had V&H pipes on it and allegedly was re-jetted. I'll believe that it was rejetted because it starts and runs decently well, but has a few issues. It's more cold-natured than I'd like and it has pretty bad deceleration popping. I'd say the mains are about right, it pulls strong and doesn't pop under load. It's just the decel and the startup. Also, it idles around 1200rpms. What's the factory idle? I've done lots of other Honda carbs and I've got a pretty good handle on what affects what range, but this is my daily ride and I can't screw it up. Is this possibly just an idle-screw adjustment, or will I need to shim the needles a tad higher? Is there a source for just shims?
Theres lots of carb info if you search, but sounds like you need to bump up the idle jets. I did mine and the poping went away and gave me some much needed power on the low end. As for idle I believe its 1000 rpm.
Quote from: gargoyleddriver on May 31, 2010, 10:03:44 PM
Theres lots of carb info if you search, but sounds like you need to bump up the idle jets. I did mine and the poping went away and gave me some much needed power on the low end. As for idle I believe its 1000 rpm.
1000 RPM, that's correct.
What air cleaner are you running??
You could try to turn out the Pilot jets some more (no Idea where they are set presently??)
You will need a special "D" socket, if you don't already have one.
I'd start at 2 3/4 turns out, but you may have to go a little further than that..
Any idea if you have any shims beyond the stock ONE shim???
There are some washers you can get from Radio Shack, that's what most people use, they are .020 " each (search the threads). You need to add at least one and maybe two..
There is some talk about going up to 42 pilots, but I have no data on that...
(unrelated) - Question.. Any chance you have a punch mark next to your S/N on the neck of the bike??
Advice really depends on the type of jet kit used. If it was the Dynojet kit, the clip on the jet needle may not be in the right slot. If it was a larger main jet and shim increase, then adjusting the idle jets may help. Anyway to find out what jet kit was used?
Only way I can think of to figure out what's in it is to tear the carbs off, which I haven't done yet since I got the bike. I'm riding to NC and back from here in MD, like 1500-2000 miles depending on side-trips, in a few weeks. Hopefully I'll have time before then. I got a laundry list of things before then including valve adjustment, regulator relocation, and so on. Since it's running it's kinda the bottom of my list, but I do hope to get to the carbs before the big ride.
Quote from: JLeather on June 01, 2010, 03:04:07 PM
I got a laundry list of things before then including valve adjustment,
The information I have received from the experienced folks on this site is that valve adjustment on the Gen 3's is pretty much a waste.. several people have done it or had it done and none of the valves were more than .02 off. To do the valves yourself, you have to buy a shim kit that contains lot's of shims, you can't just get what you need.
So, you can keep valve adjustment on the list if you want to, but I'd think about replacing it with the carb work...
Did you see my question in my last post??
(unrelated) - Question.. Any chance you have a punch mark next to your S/N on the neck of the bike??
I would do carbs first before valves, valves as stated have not been an issue overall.
Posted here is good real life experiences regarding carb work, look over this and if you have questions be sure and ask.
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=2119.0
FAQ Section is a compilation of good information.
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=1917.0
Hootmon, I'll check next time I'm in the garage. I honestly have no idea.
If I can skip the valves then great. Plenty of other stuff to do in the mean time. The bike only has 11,500 miles on it anyway. It does have a funny occasional rattle at hot idle. It might be my slightly out-of-tune carbs rattling the clutch or primary. I thought I'd do valves and eliminate that possibility, but if that's not likely the culprit I'll spend my time elsewhere. I'll be pulling the carbs off this Friday (or maybe tonight if I get time after work after fixing the darn dishwasher). Once I know where it is and what's already been installed I'll know what I'm up against. BTW, anyone know what the correlation is between clips on the DynoJet kit and shims on a stock needle?
The hot idle rattle is probably the cam chain tensioners. They normally rattle, but if they get significantly worse, then a tensioner replacement is in order.
The clips or shims adjust the needle height in the jet. I.e., more shims set the needle higher and allow more fuel in. Same with the needle clip. The clip sets the height of the needle in the jet. Lower clip on the needle (higher in the jet) allows more fuel.
There has been discussion on a couple boards that the Dynojet kits instructions are not correct (pics not matching words, or somesuch) and some installs put the needle clip in the wrong slot. If you can get Greg ("The" MOOT Master) to see this, he probably has some advice as I beleive he had a DJ kit installed successfully.
Hootmon, I did not see any punch mark on the neck of my bike. What might such a mark indicate?
As for the carbs, I didn't have time to get them totally off tonight. I did get everything else off around them, and I do in fact have a K&N filter with my V&H pipes. I have K&N filter oil so I'll clean and re-oil it before I put it all back together. Obviously something has been done to the carbs, because it would run terribly on the stock main/needle with these pipes and filter. Friday I'll have time to get the carbs totally off and see what I'm dealing with here.
I will say that all the screws were correct, tight, and not stripped so whoever did the carb work was good. Since the guy I saved the magna from didn't seem capable of such care I imagine it was done at a shop.
Quote from: JLeather on June 02, 2010, 09:24:04 PM
Hootmon, I did not see any punch mark on the neck of my bike. What might such a mark indicate?
The '94 had a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin (http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/V4_94magna_cam.html)) to fix a "Cam Noise" issue where Honda would drill small holes in the Cam caps to let oil flow through them. IF Honda did the work, they were supposed to put a punch mark next to the S/N - I've NEVER had anyone say yes to the question yet, So it looks like Honda did not perform this work on very many bikes..
My '94 has a "Knock" sometimes at low idle (It's not a rattle, it's a knock), this seems to be "Normal" (for a NON-TSB'ed '94). The "Knock" might have gone away IF Honda had performed the TSB, but unsure since I can't find anyone who has had the work performed.
Thanx for checking for me.
Well, while I'm this far into it is it worth drilling the caps or what? I suppose that could be what I'm hearing. I went and searched for your posts on this issue. Mine sounds exactly the same. It comes and goes, at idle only. Usually 10-20 "knocks" at a time, then quiet for a bit, then back. Only when hot too. I'm up for doing the TSB if it's not too bad. Has anyone actually performed it themselves, and does the noise actually go away? Anything above idle and I can't hear it over the pipes :)
I've been asking for about 4 years and I have not found anyone that has performed this on a a '94, so good luck on your quest!!!
I will tell you that I have about 80K on my bike and the knock is no worse and she still runs like new..
Would it have been better if the work had been done? probably.
Should it be done at this point in my Magna's life?? Hummm....
I say if it ain't broke......Find something else to fiddle with.
HI-
I just joined, and was about to post almost the same thing-
My bike is a '97, it has V & H pipes and the prev owner gave me a reciept showing the install of a :Dynojet" kit...
My symptoms are the outrageous amount of decel popping, plus I also have a "flat" spot where the throttle hesitates at about 5-6K RPM, especially if you roll off, then try to roll back on it hesitates then catches forward.
I'm thinking lean condition all around? Would the pilot screws help with this? Is this the same screws that are used for synch?
I am in Baltimore, I would love to team up with someone who could show me how to pull these carbs, I'm a little squirrley about trying it myself.
:?
Quote from: matty on June 03, 2010, 02:09:39 PM
HI-
I just joined, and was about to post almost the same thing-
My bike is a '97, it has V & H pipes and the prev owner gave me a reciept showing the install of a :Dynojet" kit...
My symptoms are the outrageous amount of decel popping, plus I also have a "flat" spot where the throttle hesitates at about 5-6K RPM, especially if you roll off, then try to roll back on it hesitates then catches forward.
I'm thinking lean condition all around? Would the pilot screws help with this? Is this the same screws that are used for synch?
I am in Baltimore, I would love to team up with someone who could show me how to pull these carbs, I'm a little squirrley about trying it myself.
:?
Another marylander...near baltimore...like me and Jleather than...wow....MOOT should branch out to MOOM lol.
I've pulled carbs before but I have never adjusted jets.
Quote from: matty on June 03, 2010, 02:09:39 PM
HI-
I just joined, and was about to post almost the same thing-
My bike is a '97, it has V & H pipes and the prev owner gave me a reciept showing the install of a :Dynojet" kit...
My symptoms are the outrageous amount of decel popping, plus I also have a "flat" spot where the throttle hesitates at about 5-6K RPM, especially if you roll off, then try to roll back on it hesitates then catches forward.
I'm thinking lean condition all around? Would the pilot screws help with this? Is this the same screws that are used for synch?
It would probably help to know more about how your carbs are set up but to answer your question, no, the mixture screws are different from the synch adjustment screws. Also, while opening the pilots a little may help with the decel popping it's unlikely to completely cure it. Again, without knowing what's in there it's hard to speculate and without experimenting, you stay where you are. Certainly worth a try but it does require a special "D" shaped socket tool to engage the screw heads. I had some decel popping (not an outrageous amount) that almost completely went away after I went up one size on my pilot jets (from 40 to 42). I had tried playing with the mixture screws but never saw much change.
The flat spot could be main jets and/or shim/clip position on the needles (most probably the latter) or might even be poor synchronization (although I would think you would have trouble across the rpm range if that were the case). Adding a shim (or moving the clip down one notch) could help there. As for pulling the carbs, it's not as big a deal as you may think it is. I was very hesitant too the first time but as long as you work slow and take your time, it's completely doable (as many here will tell you). I've done it twice now and the second time I had them off and on in under 2 hours (includes changing the idle jets and a lengthy phone conversation with my brother). It's not something that I want to do over and over again (I'd rather be riding the damn thing after all) but I'm pretty happy I took the plunge. My point is not to say I'm the worlds greatest motorcycle mechanic (I most certainly am not) but I do have the fine people here on this forum to thank for just about all that I've learned about my bike. I am humbled by their collective knowledge.
Incidently, I've got V&H pipes too along with a Factory Pro jet kit, which I think uses similar clip type needles instead of shims (just doesn't require any drilling). Mine are set on the second notch (the recommended starting point for tuning according to Factory Pro) and I don't have any hesitation at all anywhere from idle to redline.
Alright, carbs are off and one is apart to see what I'm up against. Here's the deal:
108 Main
40 Pilot
Silver aftermarket needle with 6 positions (I think it's a Dynojet needle). The clip is in the third from the top with what I imagine is the stock shim under it, so there are 3 positions richer and 2 positions leaner
The idle screws were at 2 1/4 turns out. BTW, someone slotted them so they can be adjusted with a regular screwdriver instead of the special tool.
Now, after reading through the extremely helpful link to other members' carb tunings, I can see that I'm way too lean at idle. LJ's tune with a K&N and V&H is 110 Mains, 42 Pilots, 1 additional shim, and 3 1/8 turns out. I think the bike was a tad lean throughout, but very lean at idle. It had issues surging slightly at low constant throttle applications (like when trying to maintain 35mph through a school zone).
My plan is to pick up some 110 mains and 42 pilots for starters. That oughta help richen me up a bit throughout the whole range. For idle screws I'm going to give 2 3/4 turns a shot, thought I'm thinking it might take 3 before it's right. I'm also gonna bump the idle back down to 1000 where it oughta be. It's the needle I'm just not sure about. Anyone know about what slip position would be similar to the 1 additional shim LJ was using? I'm considering moving it one clip richer (third from the bottom instead of third from the top).
Ok, that's all for now. I'm gonna go clean up things a bit and bag/label the bolts. Anyone know if dealer's carry additional jet sizes? There's also a shop a couple miles away that dyno-tunes. I might give them a call tomorrow and see what they got.
Oh, and since I'm off work tomorrow and not doing much Sunday I went ahead and yanked the rear cam holders off. I'm gonna do the TSB this weekend. I'll let y'all know how it turns out. I'm also a little concerned about the level of wear inside the holders for an 11,000 mile engine. Nothing severe, I'll snap pics and see what you guys think. Have any of you had your cam towers off? Also, can I do the fronts without draining the coolant/moving the radiator?
Wow- lots of useful info here, I suspect my setup will need similar tweaking-
Does anybody have a comprehensive list of the tools required to do carb work on V45's?
Quote from: matty on June 03, 2010, 10:17:46 PM
Wow- lots of useful info here, I suspect my setup will need similar tweaking-
Does anybody have a comprehensive list of the tools required to do carb work on V45's?
You're looking for DG, if he does not show up, send him a PM.
So, I was pondering something about my carbs today. I went to a local place a picked up a set of 110 mains. They look different from the ones I pulled out. The ones I picked up had a little band engraved around the head, just like the ones pictured for 99101 Keihins on all the jet ID sites (makes sense, since that's what I was buying). The ones I pulled out had no band around them and the head was a bit taller. Since I've got DynoJet needles, it would make sense I've got DynoJet jets right? They all come in a kit, and I don't believe this bike was dyno-tuned (or it'd run better) so they're almost certainly the DynoJet jets. Is there a positive way to ID the DJ jets?
Now, here's the question. The FAQ says that a DynoJet 108 (which I've got in the bike) is similar to a 112 Keihin jet. Anyone know why that is and what validity there is to it? I do know that my bike at WOT seemed to pull fine. Perhaps I oughta keep the 108 DynoJet mains in there and just bump the idle jets and needle/idle screw settings?
I found that the Dyna-jet kit worked GREAT for me on my previous 96 Magna with the needle in the 3rd from top, 42 idle jets and the Dyna-Jet 100's. Remember that the # on the jet can be specific to that manufactuer.
Several in the DFW area had ridden this one and all spoke of its throttle response and pull..
Well, I did the cam holders. And learned a couple lessons along the way. Getting them out wasn't that bad really. BUT, make sure that whichever holder you're taking off that cam is on compression (both valves closed) or when you take the holders off that cam will jump out of the head.
Here she is all torn down:
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k113/JLeatherman_CF/Bikes/1994%20Magna/CIMG0019.jpg)
And the area of interest:
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k113/JLeatherman_CF/Bikes/1994%20Magna/CIMG0018.jpg)
Started in on the cam holder. First was the center to make sure I get a good start with that tiny little drill bit (1mm):
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k113/JLeatherman_CF/Bikes/1994%20Magna/CIMG0020.jpg)
Then it was time for the teeny little bit:
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k113/JLeatherman_CF/Bikes/1994%20Magna/CIMG0021.jpg)
And the finished product:
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k113/JLeatherman_CF/Bikes/1994%20Magna/CIMG0022.jpg)
Did it to all 8, and the bit survived just fine. The advantage of starting with the center is that I also end up with a nice chamfered hole as pictured to help the oil flow. Deburred, cleaned (extra thoroughly), and ready to rock. When I reassembled them I coated the journals with a bit of oil so it won't be a dry start-up. Torqued everything down, checked it all out. Ya know what? That cam that jumped out of the journal earlier ended up being off a tooth in timing. I didn't have time to address that, so that's where I guess I'm starting next time. Atleast the drilling worked out great.
Thanks for posting the pics- If no special tools are required, I am going to try and pull my carbs and see what the jetting situation is too.
The Dynojet jets ARE different then the stock Kiehin jets. I would suggest not mixing 'em unless you know the differences between the two.
Making some good headway on the Magna. Had to wait for the new pilot jets to come in at my local store. Also, some "lessons learned" during reassembly that would have made the job a lot faster. Most notable, the aluminum plate above the carbs has a front and a back; it's not symmetric. I was pretty bummed when I finally got the carbs back on the bike only to fid out that the aircleaner didn't fit :-x Anyway, I got it fired up last night and it sounded great, but I couldn't take it out yet because the clutch cover is still leaking (in spite of a new gasket). I ended up leaving the DynoJet 108's in it, bumped the needles up a notch to 3rd from the bottom, put 42 pilots in it, and opened the idle screws to 2 7/8. Throttle response sitting in my garage it much crisper, but obviously I can't tell anything til I get it out on the road. Likewise with the cam holder mods, I won't know how well it worked till she's good and warm.
Ok, test report time. Got her back together and went for a good ride this weekend. No cam rattle :cool: so that part worked atleast. Anyone know what mark I'm supposed to put on the engine when I do the TSB? If I ever resell it I don't want someone else thinking they still need to do it.
For the ride report, it definitely runs better. Downhill decel pop is all but gone. It smells a touch rich at idle, but I'm ok with that for now. The most improvement was just off-idle where the bike used to surge and buck. I went for a ~180 mile ride with my wife. Riding was good (except I really need progressive springs now). Only complaint is the mileage. When the bike was too lean I was pulling ~40mpg hitting the reserve at right around 105 miles. My first 2 tank fulls this weekend were almost 30mpg on the nose :? I know from reading that some people get around that, and it was 2-up averaging 70-75mph with a bit of wind, but still. That's a 25% reduction in mileage. That sound right to anyone else? I'm gonna check for leaks when I get home.
Quote from: hootmon on May 31, 2010, 10:12:19 PM
(unrelated) - Question.. Any chance you have a punch mark next to your S/N on the neck of the bike??
Hoot answers your question above.
I believe the technical service bulletin called for a single punch mark to be added after the last digit of the VIN#.
Quote from: JLeather on June 21, 2010, 07:59:56 AM
Only complaint is the mileage. When the bike was too lean I was pulling ~40mpg hitting the reserve at right around 105 miles. My first 2 tank fulls this weekend were almost 30mpg on the nose :? I know from reading that some people get around that, and it was 2-up averaging 70-75mph with a bit of wind, but still. That's a 25% reduction in mileage. That sound right to anyone else? I'm gonna check for leaks when I get home.
30 MPG sounds low, I hit that but I would be running 85-95 on the hwy. What type of shield do you have? With 42 pilots 2 7/8s I would say is too rich.
No windshield. It does smell a touch rich at idle. Not blacken-the-plugs rich or anything, just a touch. It doesn't let out any smoke at any time, whether a smooth roll up from 2k or a WOT blast at 5k. I *might* drop the needles back down a notch (maybe a half notch by usig another washer) but that's a lot of work. I'd figure a 25% reduction in mileage oughta equate to some black smoke if I had it that wrong. I'll recheck all the bowl screws for tightness and drop the idle to ~2 5/8 - 2 3/4 and see how she does. Could the idle adjustment really affect overall fuel consumption that much? Also, I don't remember what sprockets I'm running. I thought they were roughly stock, maybe a tooth or too higher on the rear. I'll check it all out tonight when the carbs come back off. Tomorrow morning at 8 I'm leaving for my long ride, gonna put atleast 2000 miles on over the next few days. Gonna be hitting a lot of gas stations at this rate :)
Quote from: JLeather on June 21, 2010, 01:57:06 PM
No windshield. It does smell a touch rich at idle. Not blacken-the-plugs rich or anything, just a touch. It doesn't let out any smoke at any time, whether a smooth roll up from 2k or a WOT blast at 5k. I *might* drop the needles back down a notch (maybe a half notch by usig another washer) but that's a lot of work. I'd figure a 25% reduction in mileage oughta equate to some black smoke if I had it that wrong. I'll recheck all the bowl screws for tightness and drop the idle to ~2 5/8 - 2 3/4 and see how she does. Could the idle adjustment really affect overall fuel consumption that much? Also, I don't remember what sprockets I'm running. I thought they were roughly stock, maybe a tooth or too higher on the rear. I'll check it all out tonight when the carbs come back off. Tomorrow morning at 8 I'm leaving for my long ride, gonna put atleast 2000 miles on over the next few days. Gonna be hitting a lot of gas stations at this rate :)
No I don't believe the idle screws would affect mileage that much, doing half a move on your needles along with idle screw adjustments I would think will remedy your issue. Having some decel pop is normal, eliminating it would probably throw you on the rich side.
I think it needs a half clip less needles now. The needles are 3rd from the top and I just put about 1300 miles on it this past week to NC and back from MD. The bike now gets between 37-40 depending on hills/wind/speed. It seems ok, but I did notice that when I got it really hot (a few hours of flogging it up and down the blueridge parkway) it runs a tad worse than it does when it's a bit cooler. It makes me think it's still just a little bit rich. if I feel up for it I'll move the needles up to the 2nd from the top and put a .020 shim under there for like a half-clip adjustment. But I don't feel like working OR riding at the moment so we'll have to see.