No, not that kind of HOT... the *bad* kind of HOT
Since I moved from Ohio to Oklahoma 3 years ago I've had a funny feeling my 2003 Magna was slowly running hotter and hotter.
Fluids were changed, I went through 2 front Cam Chain Tensioners in 13,000 miles, just recently the original regulator/rectifier (and shortly thereafter at MOOTMaG 2014, the less than 2 year old battery...).
Last January I had the local Honda Powerhouse look into it; their response was it was old coolant causing the issue (it was less than 12 months old.) They flushed, pressure checked, check fan, thermostat etc and the cooling system itself got a passing grade. No issues there. Of course it was 40 degrees riding home so it wasn't running very hot then.
My last trip 2 weeks ago was to Houston and back from OKC; down was mostly fine with some temperature light action (never longer than a mile or two unless stopped at a stoplight-always went off once moving). So I didn't worry. On the way back it was something like 113 degrees heat index, all interstate, no clouds.... I had to stop and find car washes to spray the bike down, stopping every 30-60 miles.
I have not noted any changes in engine response, MPG has not changed, it starts up like a champ (when the battery isn't dead....).
I have in the last few months need to adjust the idle screw two or three times-Idle had fallen down to below 500rpm causing the engine to sometimes stall at a stoplight. Pulled the idle speed back up to 1,000 RPM.
-I have noted that the tachometer needle isn't very steady. I don't remember if it has always been like that ( a 'stock feature') or if that has been a slow change. It can vary 200+ RPM just while idling; even at speed, under steady load, I can perceive the needle jiggling up/down a bit.
Spark plugs are about 25,000 miles old (AKA about 2 years). I am considering changing to the manual-recommended one step cooler "plug for extended high speed riding" plug. (A CR9 instead of a CR8 IIRC)
In the past few months I have:
replaced the original fuel filter (which still was in great condition)
cleaned/recharged the K&N Air filter (done annually)
In the last week I have:
Looked at ignition timing-okay based on service manual
confirmed coolant is there-all good.
just changed oil after adding techron into the gas tank. Oil looked like 8,000 miles old oil looks-well used. I run full synthetic Rotella T.
-as usual there is a little bit of metal dust on the tip of the magnetic drain bolt. Not shavings or anything-just dust.
I will be checking the radiator cap to make sure it is installed correctly. I will also look at the manual to see if there is an way to 'bleed air' out of the coolant system in case there is air trapped. But neither of these things is likely a culprit over time (and at least two coolant changes).
I will also be looking to clean the starter/kill switch to make sure there isn't something going on there. Doing research on this forum seemed to suggest that could be a cause. And it's been awhile since those have been looked at.
Valve check was done a few thousand miles ago; last one before that was 60,000 miles ago. No real change in valve clearances; cam chain timing when viewed inside the head looked fine, based on the cam sprocket timing index marks. One exhaust valve is out-of-spec tight but I'm choosing to leave it be. Remaining valves were in-spec.
And SO.. I am supposed to leave SATURDAY on an annual charity ride I do every year-planning 3,000+ miles on the road in 2 weeks!
I'm nervous to say the least. And of course my options are limited on what I can do between now and then. Wouldn've gotten to this sooner if future mother in law hadn't been visiting last week...
Any ideas? Anyone who is much more mechanically inclined and good at troubleshooting overheating issues mind if I give them a call?!?
Hop Along
Is the temperature light coming on or just the fan? Have you checked the antifreeze lately, I also would check the thermostat as well as the radiator cap. Starter switch won't make it run hot.
Hi Jerry,
Light comes on and fan runs even after light is out. Sometimes I have to wait after turning the bike off before shutting the key off because the fan runs for another minute or three.
Antifreeze is only a few months old, was changed when the thermostat and radiator cap were checked by a Honda dealer shop-all checked out ok.
Scott
Fan is controlled by a temperature control switch which turns it on an off the only things I can think of is thermastate is bad or radiator cap.
Wow. Just took off the cap and with the bike on the centerstand, the radiator is only half full. Overflow tank is between the low and Hi marks. And to think I topped off the overflow tank last week. I have no way of knowing if its been at this level since the dealer visit in January. But isn't the radiator supposed to be full when cold, with the overflow tank between the low and high mark?
Scott
Yes it should be full and the overflow should be at the level of the marks. You have found the problem now you just need to find out if it is leaking somewhere.
Just popped over to the AutoZone who did a radiator cap pressure checkc for me. Their impression that it is fine as it
held pressure at 8PSI.
Only spec I see in the manual is " Radiator Cap Relief Pressure" at 15.64PSI
... and I have no idea if what we measured has a relationship to what the manual says.
Any idea Jerry?
Scott
It means it should hold pressure to almost 16 they checked it to 8 kits probably good fill it with antifreeze and see how it does and keep a close eye on it for any leaks.
Quote from: Jerry G Turner on July 09, 2014, 08:01:38 PM
It means it should hold pressure to almost 16 they checked it to 8 kits probably good fill it with antifreeze and see how it does and keep a close eye on it for any leaks.
They pumped it up to 15 or so, it released to 8 quickly, then held at 8. "probably good"... filling me with confidence Jerry, you are :lol:
Wish I were joining y'all this weekend at the wrench session!!
Going for a spin to see how things go. Back soon.
Hop Along
Well at least the ride was non-eventful. I did have to put a wee bit more in the radiator upon my return.
I'm not uber confident this is my primary concern though-seeing as I've been through two coolant changes in 3 years (about 30,000 miles)
Hop Along
Not sure you found the problem or not Scott for the reasons you stated, Jerry went over many good points.
A couple of quick observations.
1. You don't know for a fact (or maybe you do) the dealer's mechanic checked the thermostat.
2. This has been going on since 2 coolant changes, how did your coolant get half full? Overflow during a overheating spell or head gasket leaking. If you pull your plugs and one is clean, you have a head gasket leak to that cylinder.
3. What can cause a motor to overheat, a couple of additional points among other things, poor coolant flow or a lean fuel condition.
You are right, you need the trip delayed another week or so until you can get this sorted out. Unless you get lucky, too much to get this corrected before Saturday but overheating is a serious issue. Head warpage can bring additional problems.
I agree with Terry head gasket will cause over heating did it look like you had any water in your oil when you changed it that would be a sure sign. Hopefully that is not the cause and the cause is lack of coolant in the radiator the same dealership that told you your coolant was old maybe didn't get the radiator full and over time with the heat more of it evaporated. Make sure it is full ride it in some stop and go traffic and see what happens.
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 10, 2014, 01:03:51 AM
Not sure you found the problem or not Scott for the reasons you stated, Jerry went over many good points.
A couple of quick observations.
1. You don't know for a fact (or maybe you do) the dealer's mechanic checked the thermostat.
2. This has been going on since 2 coolant changes, how did your coolant get half full? Overflow during a overheating spell or head gasket leaking. If you pull your plugs and one is clean, you have a head gasket leak to that cylinder.
3. What can cause a motor to overheat, a couple of additional points among other things, poor coolant flow or a lean fuel condition.
You are right, you need the trip delayed another week or so until you can get this sorted out. Unless you get lucky, too much to get this corrected before Saturday but overheating is a serious issue. Head warpage can bring additional problems.
Well, the dealer tech said they'd checked the thermostat. So I am trusting that at the moment. The fan does come on and work by itself.
I filled the radiator last night that was half empty, riding to/from work today and will check tonight. It's definitely cooler on my way into work... but I'm pretty certain it shouldn't be even as hot as it was.
Pulled the old plugs last night; they are all consistent in their look:
-electrode in good physical condition, slight brown to tan coloring
-the insulator tips also all have brown coloring
-none were wet coming out.
-The front left porcelain base part had discoloration, just as the old one it replaced about 30,000 miles ago.
Linky to that post: <http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php/topic,5503.msg52457.html#msg52457>
Looking at the NGK plug reading site: <http://ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp>
I would say my plugs look halfway between 'Normal' and 'Dry Fouling', but without the deposits seen on the 'Normal' insulator end.
I should also say I would not consider myself a spark plug reading expert :-)
Scott
Quote from: Jerry G Turner on July 10, 2014, 08:40:23 AM
I agree with Terry head gasket will cause over heating did it look like you had any water in your oil when you changed it that would be a sure sign. Hopefully that is not the cause and the cause is lack of coolant in the radiator the same dealership that told you your coolant was old maybe didn't get the radiator full and over time with the heat more of it evaporated. Make sure it is full ride it in some stop and go traffic and see what happens.
To/From work is stop and go. Will check tonight.
I also woke up in the middle of the night realizing I should pour the oil that came out, into the old container it came from.
I figure if anything, the container should return to full, or less than full. If it is overfull... that seems like an obvious sign to me that coolant is getting in (it couldn't be anything else right?)
By Cylinder Head Gasket, do we mean the one above the intake/exhaust (which is exposed when doing a valve check), or the one below the intake/exhaust (which would require head removal for access)? I'd replaced the upper ones when doing valve check a month or two ago, and am pretty confident they were installed correctly.
Scott
I will also look closer for water signs in the oil that came out.
Quote from: hop along on July 10, 2014, 09:29:08 AM
By Cylinder Head Gasket, do we mean the one above the intake/exhaust (which is exposed when doing a valve check), or the one below the intake/exhaust (which would require head removal for access)? I'd replaced the upper ones when doing valve check a month or two ago, and am pretty confident they were installed correctly.
I will also look closer for water signs in the oil that came out.
Head gasket will be in the lower seam, below the exhaust ports. It's the gasket between the head and block. The upper one is the valve cover gasket.
Coolant in the oil will cause the oil to come out looking like a milkshake. If it came out looking like dirty oil, you're probably fine. Same goes with oil getting into the coolant passages - you'd have chocolate milk in your radiator. It would be very obvious.
Have you noticed any steam or white smoke from the exhaust? If so, that's an indication that coolant is leaking into the combustion chamber. However, as Terry said, if that were happening then one of your plugs should look abnormally clean.
If you don't have any external leaks, it's most likely that you have or had air trapped in the cooling system which caused the underfill. Make sure that the open part of the system - radiator fill neck - is the highest part of the system when filling. Might need to raise the front of the bike a bit, centerstand on a slightly inclined driveway should work fine for this. Then fill the radiator until it's full, wait 15-30 minutes, run the bike for a few minutes with the radiator cap off, look for the drop in coolant level to indicate that the thermostat has opened, shut it down, top it off, rinse and repeat until you're confident that the system's full. Make sure that your overflow tank has a bit of coolant in it already, otherwise the siphon balance effect won't work correctly.
Last thing - cooling a hot engine by spraying water over it can cause damage. Sudden cooling of overheating engines can cause metal warping as part of the engine cools quickly and contracts while other parts remain hot and more pliable. The effects of this damage are usually pretty immediately noticeable, so you probably haven't screwed anything up, but best to not do that anymore.
Quote from: v4_jeff on July 10, 2014, 11:08:21 AM
Last thing - cooling a hot engine by spraying water over it can cause damage. Sudden cooling of overheating engines can cause metal warping as part of the engine cools quickly and contracts while other parts remain hot and more pliable. The effects of this damage are usually pretty immediately noticeable, so you probably haven't screwed anything up, but best to not do that anymore.
Crap for crap. Didn't even think about that.
Thanks for the radiator filling tip.
Scott
Just put the old oil back into the original container (which still had the leftover). It returned to just .275 Liters below the original amount, so that, to me, is another sign that coolant isn't getting into the wrong place. Also no white smoke or steam .
Jeff I did do the radiator fill 'Jeff Method' but the only time there was an obvious level drop in coolant at the radiator fill cap, cap off, was momentarily at startup. After nearly 10 minutes fan hadn't come on yet either but I could feel the heat.
I did enjoy watching the swirling motion of the coolant though.
Scott
I'd say note the levels both in the radiator and overflow tank, ride it for a few days and see how it behaves or if the levels drop. If the level does drop, top it off and see if it does it again. It's possible that there is still air trapped in the system, but it should work its way out.
I think it'd be worth it to get a new radiator cap. If the spec is 15psi and it's only holding 8, that could allow too much coolant to escape to the overflow tank, and maybe even overflow from the overflow tank. With such a small coolant capacity, that can have pretty drastic effects.
Are you going to try the trip? If so, just stop frequently at first to keep an eye on the levels, refill as necessary. You don't have to worry about freezing this time of year, so you can just run straight water. It would be good to run distilled water to prevent mineral deposits but it's not critical so any hose or bottle will do for top-offs. Just make sure to replace it with the proper antifreeze and distilled water mix when you get all this figured out.
Quote from: v4_jeff on July 11, 2014, 09:06:51 AM
I think it'd be worth it to get a new radiator cap. If the spec is 15psi and it's only holding 8, that could allow too much coolant to escape to the overflow tank, and maybe even overflow from the overflow tank. With such a small coolant capacity, that can have pretty drastic effects.
Jeff, We are still planning on leaving tomorrow. I need karma to help; Terry has a new toolbag on its way to me I don't want loose tools bouncing around in a ziplock bag fro 2 weeks!!! Tracking says it is in town... just need the USPS to come through for me. I knew I should've ordered a day earlier... but I digress.
In a visit back to Autozone, they visually matched the radiator cap with one they had in stock, unpackaged. Looked brand new. It fit perfect. Both have a very obvious number stamp on top:
1.1 And since they didn't know where it came from nor how much to charge... they let me have it for free :-) SO I am trying that out as a start. And bringing the old cap along.
Our first day of travel is Norman, OK-Springfield, MO. And we are leaving before sunrise. So as to ease into the trip. And in Springfield we are staying with friends who have both a well stocked tool barn and a spare bike as our plan B ... a BMW K100. It only has twice the mileage my bike has (which is to say about 275,000 miles!)
I am also considering stopping tonight for some 'Water Wetter' or Royal Purple Purple Ice. A few posts elsewhere in the forum have had decent remarks about their use in helping things run cooler.
I am also hoping today to order a new thermostat for good measure. Only about $35. Have any idea if an auto thermostat would work so I don't have to wait for a Honda dealer to come through with one? I'm not about to take it off and see if there is a match. I'm not yet *that* desparate....
:P
Scott
The 1.1 stamp indicates pressure in atmospheres - 1.1 bar. 1 bar = 14.3 PSI, so that sounds about right. If it fits, I don't see why it wouldn't work. It's probably the same cap, same manufacturer, etc. Same goes with thermostats. A thermostat is a thermostat typically, as long as it fits, rated for the same temperature range, has similar passage cutouts, and similar valve lift, it should work fine. There are some more intricacies with thermostat fit though, so make sure you've got a good match. Also make sure you put it in the right way. Backwards thermostats suck (experience talking). :shock:
Water Wetter and Purple Ice are both good products which I've used and can confirm that they work well, but you can cheap out and do it DIY style. Put a single drop of dish soap and a tablespoon of isopropyl rubbing alcohol directly into the radiator. The dish soap breaks down the surface tension of the water allowing it to make better contact with the metal surfaces of the radiator core and coolant passages for more efficient heat transfer. The alcohol keeps the soap from forming suds and foam. Water Wetter and Purple Ice use about the same amounts of a more pure form of glycerin and alcohol, most of the bottle is just distilled water with a little coloring for Royal Purple and Redline branding. I've used the DIY soap and alcohol mix in all of my vehicles for well over 10 years. As an added benefit, the soap will help to suppress corrosion, galvanization, and mineral deposits, and it'll be piney fresh (not really)!
Good luck with the trip, hope it goes without incident!
I think there is a link in the FAQ section for thermostates. Jeff great tip on the dish soap I am fixin to go do that to my bike.
Quote from: Jerry G Turner on July 11, 2014, 01:53:15 PM
Jeff great tip on the dish soap I am fixin to go do that to my bike.
Just remember the rubbing alcohol, need it to suppress the foam.
A magna foaming at the mouth might frighten the other bikes off. lol
Quote from: Jerry G Turner on July 11, 2014, 01:53:15 PM
I think there is a link in the FAQ section for thermostates. Jeff great tip on the dish soap I am fixin to go do that to my bike.
Paging Terry... Linky on Magna FAQ isn't linking, for thermostat cross reference chart :-(
Quote from: Jerry G Turner on July 11, 2014, 02:40:02 PM
A magna foaming at the mouth might frighten the other bikes off. lol
Jerry I'll let you try that first. Just be sure to share pics :shock:
I wonder if I could make Dawn soap foam blue to match my bike. That would rock! :lol:
Hop Along
I have been working on info for the thermostat the last hour, I have no links but did have old notes from someone, I know who but do not know if this info references the Gen 3 Magna or an earlier model.
Something tells me an earlier model and I had no way to verify it or I would have put it up earlier.
I had to split the Magna FAQ Section into two parts due to a character limit.
I have more info from the same person on Air Filter Cross Reference and it relates to the earlier Magna/Sabre so I am thinking the other notes I had are for the same time period bikes.
The only other issue we haven't talked about is the water pump however most of the time if it goes bad it will start leaking. Just something to think about. Hope your trip goes smoothly.
Thanks Jerry!
I've had some visits with AutoZone and ORiellys, might have some thermostat part numbers, but don't know for sure. They didn't have them in stock so we weren't able to do a real comparison; they also don't have specs about full open temperature and valve opening distance.
Scott
Trip is going well, in Murray, KY after two days of hot riding. bike is doing well, haven't seen the overheating light on at all. Other than at bike startup anywyas!
I think mostly the filling the radiator and new radiator cap has made the most difference, along with Jeff's DIY additive. Looked at the thermostat cross-fit part number just for fun (ha!) that Terry had up on teh FAQ page, but indeed it must be a first or second gen fit-quite obvious it didn't have a chance of fitting the third gen thermostat-it was bigger than teh housing! Still going to track one down before returning though... I feel like it is a safety blanket :-)
Another friend also suggested using Premium gas. I know our bike doesn't require jtop shelf, but I'm also trying to use 89 or 91 gas while its hot. Hoping the 'cold front' hits us soon!
Hop Along
Find a thermostat and we can update the info Scott.
If all is right with the bike, you need nothing extra and will never see the temp light other than start-ups.
I can pull the info back off the FAQ or leave it depending what others think.
Hey Scott, you back yet? How did the ride go? Any cooling issues?
Yep, I'm back.
During the ride my HID kit failed (not sure if it was the ballast or bulb, but there is a lifetime warranty on both. Didn't have another ballast/bulb to check which was the bad part and continuity testing the bulb doesn't really work-so I've been made to understand). I was able to use my auxiliary lights (once I replaced the partly melted fuse holder....) and restore the wiring to the stock H4 bulb in an AutoZone Parking lot in SE Pennsylvania.
It seems my 6 month old Regulator/Rectifier failed. My New-at-MOOTMaG battery was nearly fried dry. I was able to nurse it back nearly 1,700 miles to OK. We did come up with a new trick... slowly pour water onto the textured side of a zip tie, with the zip tie end sitting at the top of the battery fill holes (easier than the nasal spray bottle trick! and clean!)
Oh, and while the bike still seems hot the cooling system was effective enough to keep things happy, except for the stop-and-go traffic and dead-stop construction zones I ran into.
This included a Saddlesore 1000 last Saturday from Ohio to Oklahoma.
Haven't had time to look more into thermostat yet. Big list of things to do at home :-/
Scott
Have noticed that the rad fan hasn't been coming on the last three summers during in-town riding. Checked the fan by grounding, fan is OK. Ordered/ installed a new temp. fan switch. Fan has not come on yet, but maybe need hotter temps, only high 90's. Will monitor.
Brad Badgett
OK Region
MOOT #164
1996 VF750C
It is rare when my fan comes on. It has happened, after a long ride on a very hot day, and sitting at idle for what must have been an interminable red light. I was really annoyed at sitting still in the heat for that long, and glad to get moving to get some air through my jacket...
Doing stop-go riding in Norman, air temp 90's, fan came on at a long light. I'm happy. New switch is working.
Brad Badgett
OK Region
Hey guys, remember that time when I started this post?
I just found the connector to the fan switch is intermittent... sometimes it works by itself, sometimes I have to hold it just right.
FWIW my aftermarket highway bars (I'm not sure of the brand but I rarely seen them on other Magnas) makes the wire coming out of the connector make an awkward bend.
The first TWO times I tested by paperclip to force the fan to come on it was fine.
This time while changing coolant I tested again and found it to be intermittent.
(SIGH)
Hopefully it will make as big a difference actually coming on all the time as I hope it will.
Hop Along
Thanks for the follow up.