HOT bike

[hop along]

No, not that kind of HOT... the *bad* kind of HOT

Since I moved from Ohio to Oklahoma 3 years ago I've had a funny feeling my 2003 Magna was slowly running hotter and hotter. 
Fluids were changed, I went through 2 front Cam Chain Tensioners in 13,000 miles, just recently the original regulator/rectifier (and shortly thereafter at MOOTMaG 2014, the less than 2 year old battery...).

Last January I had the local Honda Powerhouse look into it; their response was it was old coolant causing the issue (it was less than 12 months old.)  They flushed, pressure checked, check fan, thermostat etc and the cooling system itself got a passing grade.  No issues there.  Of course it was 40 degrees riding home so it wasn't running very hot then.

My last trip 2 weeks ago was to Houston and back from OKC; down was mostly fine with some temperature light action (never longer than a mile or two unless stopped at a stoplight-always went off once moving).  So I didn't worry.  On the way back it was something like 113 degrees heat index, all interstate, no clouds.... I had to stop and find car washes to spray the bike down, stopping every 30-60 miles. 

I have not noted any changes in engine response, MPG has not changed, it starts up like a champ (when the battery isn't dead....).

I have in the last few months need to adjust the idle screw two or three times-Idle had fallen down to below 500rpm causing the engine to sometimes stall at a stoplight.  Pulled the idle speed back up to 1,000 RPM.
-I have noted that the tachometer needle isn't very steady.  I don't remember if it has always been like that ( a 'stock feature') or if that has been a slow change.  It can vary 200+ RPM just while idling; even at speed, under steady load, I can perceive the needle jiggling up/down a bit.

Spark plugs are about 25,000 miles old (AKA about 2 years).  I am considering changing to the manual-recommended one step cooler "plug for extended high speed riding" plug.  (A CR9 instead of a CR8 IIRC)

In the past few months I have:
replaced the original fuel filter (which still was in great condition)
cleaned/recharged the K&N Air filter (done annually)


In the last week I have:
Looked at ignition timing-okay based on service manual
confirmed coolant is there-all good.
just changed oil after adding techron into the gas tank.  Oil looked like 8,000 miles old oil looks-well used.  I run full synthetic Rotella T.
-as usual there is a little bit of metal dust on the tip of the magnetic drain bolt.  Not shavings or anything-just dust.

I will be checking the radiator cap to make sure it is installed correctly.  I will also look at the manual to see if there is an way to 'bleed air' out of the coolant system in case there is air trapped.  But neither of these things is likely a culprit over time (and at least two coolant changes).

I will also be looking to clean the starter/kill switch to make sure there isn't something going on there.  Doing research on this forum seemed to suggest that could be a cause.  And it's been awhile since those have been looked at.

Valve check was done a few thousand miles ago; last one before that was 60,000 miles ago.  No real change in valve clearances; cam chain timing when viewed inside the head looked fine, based on the cam sprocket timing index marks.  One exhaust valve is out-of-spec tight but I'm choosing to leave it be.  Remaining valves were in-spec.


And SO.. I am supposed to leave SATURDAY on an annual charity ride I do every year-planning 3,000+ miles on the road in 2 weeks!

I'm nervous to say the least.  And of course my options are limited on what I can do between now and then.  Wouldn've gotten to this sooner if future mother in law hadn't been visiting last week...

Any ideas?  Anyone who is much more mechanically inclined and good at troubleshooting overheating issues mind if I give them a call?!?

Hop Along

[Jerry G Turner]

Is the temperature light coming on or just the fan? Have you checked the antifreeze lately, I also would check the thermostat as well as the radiator cap. Starter switch won't make it run hot.

[hop along]

Hi Jerry,
Light comes on and fan runs even after light is out.  Sometimes I have to wait after turning the bike off before shutting the key off because the fan runs for another minute or three.
Antifreeze is only a few months old, was changed when the thermostat and radiator cap were checked by a Honda dealer shop-all checked out ok.
Scott

[Jerry G Turner]

Fan is controlled by a temperature control switch which turns it on an off the only things I can think of is thermastate is bad or radiator cap.

[hop along]

Wow.  Just took off the cap and with the bike on the centerstand, the radiator is only half full.  Overflow tank is between  the low and Hi marks.  And to think I topped off the overflow tank last week.  I have no way of knowing if its been at this level since the dealer visit in January.  But isn't the radiator supposed to be full when cold, with the overflow tank between the low and high mark?

Scott

[Jerry G Turner]

Yes it should be full and the overflow should be at the level of the marks. You have found the problem now you just need to find out if it is leaking somewhere.

[hop along]

Just popped over to the AutoZone who did a radiator cap pressure checkc for me.  Their impression that it is fine as it
held pressure at 8PSI.

Only spec I see in the manual is " Radiator Cap Relief Pressure" at 15.64PSI

... and I have no idea if what we measured has a relationship to what the manual says.

Any idea Jerry?

Scott

[Jerry G Turner]

It means it should hold pressure to almost 16 they checked it to 8 kits probably good fill it with antifreeze and see how it does and keep a close eye on it for any leaks.

[hop along]

It means it should hold pressure to almost 16 they checked it to 8 kits probably good fill it with antifreeze and see how it does and keep a close eye on it for any leaks.

They pumped it up to 15 or so, it released to 8 quickly, then held at 8.  "probably good"... filling me with confidence Jerry, you are 
Wish I were joining y'all this weekend at the wrench session!!

Going for a spin to see how things go.  Back soon.
Hop Along

[hop along]

Well at least the ride was non-eventful.  I did have to put a wee bit more in the radiator upon my return. 

I'm not uber confident this is my primary concern though-seeing as I've been through two coolant changes in 3 years (about 30,000 miles)

Hop Along

[TLRam1]

Not sure you found the problem or not Scott for the reasons you stated, Jerry went over many good points.

A couple of quick observations.

1. You don't know for a fact (or maybe you do) the dealer's mechanic checked the thermostat. 

2. This has been going on since 2 coolant changes, how did your coolant get half full? Overflow during a overheating spell or head gasket leaking. If you pull your plugs and one is clean, you have a head gasket leak to that cylinder. 

3. What can cause a motor to overheat, a couple of additional points among other things, poor coolant flow or a lean fuel condition.

You are right, you need the trip delayed another week or so until you can get this sorted out. Unless you get lucky, too much to get this corrected before Saturday but overheating is a serious issue. Head warpage can bring additional problems. 

[Jerry G Turner]

I agree with Terry head gasket will cause over heating did it look like you had any water in your oil when you changed it that would be a sure sign. Hopefully that is not the cause and the cause is lack of coolant in the radiator the same dealership that told you your coolant was old maybe didn't get the radiator full and over time with the heat more of it evaporated. Make sure it is full ride it in some stop and go traffic and see what happens.

[hop along]

Not sure you found the problem or not Scott for the reasons you stated, Jerry went over many good points.

A couple of quick observations.

1. You don't know for a fact (or maybe you do) the dealer's mechanic checked the thermostat. 

2. This has been going on since 2 coolant changes, how did your coolant get half full? Overflow during a overheating spell or head gasket leaking. If you pull your plugs and one is clean, you have a head gasket leak to that cylinder. 

3. What can cause a motor to overheat, a couple of additional points among other things, poor coolant flow or a lean fuel condition.

You are right, you need the trip delayed another week or so until you can get this sorted out. Unless you get lucky, too much to get this corrected before Saturday but overheating is a serious issue. Head warpage can bring additional problems. 

Well, the dealer tech said they'd checked the thermostat.  So I am trusting that at the moment.  The fan does come on and work by itself.

I filled the radiator last night that was half empty, riding to/from work today and will check tonight.  It's definitely cooler on my way into work... but I'm pretty certain it shouldn't be even as hot as it was.

Pulled the old plugs last night; they are all consistent in their look:
-electrode in good physical condition, slight brown to tan coloring
-the insulator tips also all have brown coloring

-none were wet coming out.

-The front left porcelain base part had discoloration, just as the old one it replaced about 30,000 miles ago. 
Linky to that post: <http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php/topic,5503.msg52457.html#msg52457>

Looking at the NGK plug reading site: <http://ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.asp>
   I would say my plugs look halfway between 'Normal' and 'Dry Fouling', but without the deposits seen on the 'Normal' insulator end.
I should also say I would not consider myself a spark plug reading expert
Scott

[hop along]

I agree with Terry head gasket will cause over heating did it look like you had any water in your oil when you changed it that would be a sure sign. Hopefully that is not the cause and the cause is lack of coolant in the radiator the same dealership that told you your coolant was old maybe didn't get the radiator full and over time with the heat more of it evaporated. Make sure it is full ride it in some stop and go traffic and see what happens.

To/From work is stop and go.  Will check tonight.

I also woke up in the middle of the night realizing I should pour the oil that came out, into the old container it came from. 
I figure if anything, the container should return to full, or less than full.  If it is overfull... that seems like an obvious sign to me that coolant is getting in (it couldn't be anything else right?)

By Cylinder Head Gasket, do we mean the one above the intake/exhaust (which is exposed when doing a valve check), or the one below the intake/exhaust (which would require head removal for access)?  I'd replaced the upper ones when doing valve check a month or two ago, and am pretty confident they were installed correctly.

Scott

I will also look closer for water signs in the oil that came out.

[v4_jeff]

By Cylinder Head Gasket, do we mean the one above the intake/exhaust (which is exposed when doing a valve check), or the one below the intake/exhaust (which would require head removal for access)?  I'd replaced the upper ones when doing valve check a month or two ago, and am pretty confident they were installed correctly.

I will also look closer for water signs in the oil that came out.

Head gasket will be in the lower seam, below the exhaust ports. It's the gasket between the head and block. The upper one is the valve cover gasket.

Coolant in the oil will cause the oil to come out looking like a milkshake. If it came out looking like dirty oil, you're probably fine. Same goes with oil getting into the coolant passages - you'd have chocolate milk in your radiator. It would be very obvious.

Have you noticed any steam or white smoke from the exhaust? If so, that's an indication that coolant is leaking into the combustion chamber. However, as Terry said, if that were happening then one of your plugs should look abnormally clean.

If you don't have any external leaks, it's most likely that you have or had air trapped in the cooling system which caused the underfill. Make sure that the open part of the system - radiator fill neck - is the highest part of the system when filling. Might need to raise the front of the bike a bit, centerstand on a slightly inclined driveway should work fine for this. Then fill the radiator until it's full, wait 15-30 minutes, run the bike for a few minutes with the radiator cap off, look for the drop in coolant level to indicate that the thermostat has opened, shut it down, top it off, rinse and repeat until you're confident that the system's full. Make sure that your overflow tank has a bit of coolant in it already, otherwise the siphon balance effect won't work correctly.

Last thing - cooling a hot engine by spraying water over it can cause damage. Sudden cooling of overheating engines can cause metal warping as part of the engine cools quickly and contracts while other parts remain hot and more pliable. The effects of this damage are usually pretty immediately noticeable, so you probably haven't screwed anything up, but best to not do that anymore.