Apparent Regulator Failures

[DC Smith]

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The VFR crowd has been battling this for a while, and they have some good information about it on the VFR World FAQ: http://www.hondavfr.org/faq7_2.html. They've found that replacement reg/rec from Electrex USA (now ElectroSport - http://www.electrosport.com/) is much more reliable than the OEM box. There isn't a direct replacement listed on ElecroSport's site, but I bet something up there would work. For instance, the CMX450 Rebel is listed at $99, and as listed above, that can be

That's very interesting because guys on the Magna Riders Forum have all said go OEM, that the aftermarket ones don't last worth a flip.  The R/R on my 2000 went out last year.  It was a case of not charging enough (12.8V). It did not boil over.

[lragan]

FYI:

I rode home with the side covers off and seemed to not have any problems.  Got home and after I cooled down I took the seat off and had no boil over from the battery.  I have changed the battery out for a new one. 

I did not change the regulator/rectifier and this morning decided to take it to work and help open.   Started fine and not quite a half mile from home it sputtered and popped and went dead.  I pushed her home and checked the battery - it was charged.  no lights - nothing.  So today I have spent the latter part of the morning and the early afternoon getting that piece of S@%!T battery box out so I could get to the r/r so I can replace it.   Who designed that thing anyway???

Now that that's done I just have to wait for pay day and I'll get the new part.  I'll let you know how things are going.

Felicia, if the battery is charged, the engine should run, even if the alternator/regulator is kaput.  I think you have a blown fuse somewhere.  Guy finally found a dead fuse on his bike, and he is back in business, as I understand it, for the price of a fuse -- well after the battery he put in at MOOTmag6, anyway...

According to the service manual, there are five fuses.  Four are in a fuse box somewhere to the left of the battery under the seat, and (most likely problem, it seems to me), a main fuse (30A) in the starter relay housing, just to the left and aft of the battery box.

[Charles S Otwell]

Glad you made it home ok, sorry to hear your having trouble again.. When we charged Guys battery Sat morn at camp it started up and ran even with the regulator unplugged, but voltage was dropping to fast to try riding. Odd that yours wouldn't crank with a charged battery?? Hope you get it fixed soon. I think Guy picked up a used regulator to make sure that was the problem before invested in a new one.. Keep us posted on how it goes..

[Smoked U]

So today I have spent the latter part of the morning and the early afternoon getting that piece of S@%!T battery box out so I could get to the r/r so I can replace it.   Who designed that thing anyway???

My guess: Japanese engineer that is still upset about that A Bomb thing back in '45 or some HD engineer retread.

Welcome to the club. See Greg for your t-shirt, "Battery boil overs are a pain in my rectifier"

[lragan]

Received the spent unit from Dave today.  Performing the simple tests in the shop manual (off bike resistance measurements), it passes.

Waiting to show my chemist son the potting material to see if we can remove it without damaging the guts of the beast. 

After studying all the shop manuals and schematics, I am of the opinion that on hot days, and when turning 3000+ rpm consistently, one should operate all the accessories one has.  It appears that the system operates by shunting excess current from the (six diode) rectifier pack into the regulator to keep it from flowing into the battery, so the lights I use on my bike, for example, effectively remove this current and the dissipation associated with it from the regulator pack.  Who'da thought??   

(I turn the lights off when idling in traffic for long periods, as the system doesn't generate enough to supply the whole load under these conditions, and draws down the battery as a result.)

Theory du jour -- high temperatures cause the unit to fail to absorb the extra current which is then injected into the battery/electrical system, causing the battery to overcharge and boil away the electrolyte fluid.  This excess current can also cause the main (30A) fuse to blow.

Watch this space for updates as I learn more...

[TLRam1]

so the lights I use on my bike, for example, effectively remove this current and the dissipation associated with it from the regulator pack. 

I was using the same train-of-thought, that my extra 110 watts of lights I run has helped my regulator.

Since my battery box continues to be a problem as it is broke and various fixes hasn't worked if the 1/8" piece of 1-1 1/4' strap running under the regulator and holds the battery box up will be holding heat in or act as a heat exchanger and allow more heat to be removed. 

[Smoked U]

and I still think that directing some fresh air via a garage engineered pvc pipe arrangement to the rectifier would help this problem immensely. The rectifier is closed in behind the engine and must be subjected to higher than normal temperatures there in the summer.

[Greg Cothern]

I wonder if we were to install standoffs (spacers if you will) so the reg/rec had an air space between it and the battery box if this would also help......

[lragan]

Interesting idea, Greg.   In still air, my guess is that the thermal conductivity of the plastic box will move more heat than convection in a narrow gap. 

I think we all agree that we need better air flow -- and fresh air, not coming off the engine, would be a big help.  If we had good ventilation over the box, exposing the flat side to flowing air would definitely be a help.

I confess that I have not laid down to look at mine.  As I interpret the manual, the fins are oriented side to side instead of longitudinally under the battery box.  I don't see any reason that we would get much lateral air flow in this area.  We might have better cooling by reorienting the regulator. 

If we cobble together a method to increase the airflow over the regulator, we should for sure orient the regulator so the air flows between the fins, not across them.

[Charles S Otwell]

The regulator is approximately 17" from the road, 8" from the engine, 1&3/4" above the swingarm, and 3" from the rear tire. There is a 5x7" opening in the swingarm just in front of the regulator, the overflow reservoir is the closest thing besides the battery box, probably 1" away. Has anyone taken a survey to see how many and how often this problem occurs, has anyone ever had a replacement regulator go bad? Also has anyone with a 2000 or later model had a problem yet. Here are some pics of the regulator placement for those of you that haven't went digging around looking .







PS does anyone have a temp gauge with a remote sensor that could get some temps at the regulator while riding and while just sitting idling?

[lragan]

Charles, thanks for the pictures.  It is as the manual shows, with the fins running across the bike. 

Also, from the pix, it would appear that the unit is already spaced away from the battery box, so there is at least the possibility of air flow over the back of the unit. 

"PS does anyone have a temp gauge with a remote sensor that could get some temps at the regulator while riding and while just sitting idling?"

This is also a good idea.  Could be accomplished with a thermocouple under a mounting bolt.  I'll sniff around to see if I can borrow one.

Maybe our group is not a statistically significant sample -- I am not a statistician -- but it seems to me that three malfunctions in our group of a few (how many 3rd gens do you suppose were represented at MOOTmag6? -- I think the earlier models dominated, at least in my memory) is indicative of a systemic problem.

The manuals do not mention a design change in model year 2000, but if it was made without changing the connections or physical configuration, they (Honda engineers) would not have to reveal it...

[Charles S Otwell]

Lawrence the reference to 2000 and up was more related to age than model change, sorry, didn't make myself clear . Not to make it sound like there is not a problem, it just seems like the same thing has happened with batteries, headlights, and several other non specific parts. As far as the direction of the fins, remember my regulator is off of a Honda Rebel 450, so you would actually have to check a stock regulator to be sure. The small white ground wire you see on the edge of the regulator is the extra ground I added that is missing from the older regulators.  If heat is the culprit which would be easier, diverting heat from the engine away from the regulator or diverting cooler air toward the regulator?

[lragan]

Charles, I think your module is exactly the same as the Magna one with exception of the wiring. 

As for modifying the airflow, the only thing I have thought of involves putting "gills" on the front of the side panels to scoop some fresh air into the area.  With all the effort I put into painting them, I am not ready to go that route just yet.  It would also make them more susceptible to spontaneous removal at high speeds...

One might create some sort of air scoop under the bike, but I haven't really looked to see what might be possible...

[TLRam1]

Options so far;

Add air via duct to rectifier

Divert engine air away from rectifier

Move to another location

Vents in the Side Covers Front and/or back. 

Add a "computer type" fan to the rectifier similar to your CPU fan. 

Possibility - add additional lights to use more of the Alt. output watts to minimize excess wattage rectifiers have to deal with   

[Greg Cothern]

I would think putting air exits on the back side of the side covers would work better...  Need to remove air before more air will enter, otherwise it will simply "stack up" so to speak.

Maybe some louvers to extract air???