Starter / Starting issue

[hootmon]

I've had a starter issue for a while now...
When I push the starter button, sometimes the gears do not engage when the starter spins..
I know on cars there is a throw out bearing and Bendix, but when I rebuilt the starter (In hope of fixing this issue) I discovered that this action is not part of the starter...
When I replaced the Clutch, all of the gears that seem to be part of the starting mechanism seem to be OK and not missing teeth, etc.
Have any of you ran across a similar problem?
Do you know what the solution might be..
If I hit the starter a few times it will catch, But I'm wondering how much damage I'm doing to the gear teeth with the non catch events..

[Chad in Michigan]

i read about this a few months ago on the MRF board. you may want to ask that question there too.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/main.asp?webtag=MagnaRider&nav=start&prettyurl=%2FMagnaRider

Wait a minute, i found the link to the thread:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/MagnaRider/messages?msg=15096.1

That should help ya out.

[Lurkin]

How dare you reference my MRF note 

I was fighting this problem for about a year, whenenver it was cold enough that the starter had to turn for more then a few revolutions before it would catch.  My belief is the the PO had used too much Energy Conserving oil as I also had to replace the clutch at about 10K miles (slipping on high RPM runs), along with dealing with this starter thing.  The starter clutch rollers contact the base of the starter clutch gear, and I think it was the gear itself that was slipping (not the gears, but where the rollers contact the clutch base).

I had found a replacement starter, along with all the parts referenced in the posting above.  But nothing worked until I replaced the last set of parts.

Note that mine was "grinding" and not making a "whiring" like I equate with the Bendix problem you referenced.

Rod...

[hootmon]

Oh mine is a definite grinding...
The starter is turning.. Some gears are turning and pushing against others (Not fully meshed) with a grinding/chattering noise...
It doesn't do it all the time, and if I hit the start button a couple of times, it engages, as if a gear speeds up and gets thrown against another gear (That what the Bendix does on a car, centrifugal force pushes it out and into the flywheel) I'm just not sure how all the gears on the Magna work and mesh during the start process...

[Charles S Otwell]

How is the gear on the starter attached, is it keyed,or splined ? sounds like something letting it slip on the shaft, like the old lawn mower flywheel, key would break but sometimes it would catch on the broken part and start. This is brought to you once again by SWAG. I guess nobody knows what I'm talking about, Not even sure I do .

[hootmon]

I rebuilt the starter myself.. Not sure how the gear is attached, but is solid.. It is not like a Car with a bendix throw out gear, so that must happen somewhere between that gear and the clutch basket (there are several gears in between). I'm not claiming to understand how it all works beyond what I learned from the starter rebuild and what I saw while replacing my clutch. (Yes it was doing the same thing before I replaced the clutch and after)...

[Charles S Otwell]

If you take it back apart or when you figure it out be sure and take pics and document it. We love pics .

[Lurkin]

So, you had a bad clutch at the same time,,, I'm noticing a trend here.

The Magna's starter setup is a constant mesh system with 3 gears, starter clutch, and splined flange to the crank.  If you look at the parts fiche drawings for Starter, Pulse Generator, and Clutch together, you can piece together how it works. 

o The starter gear meshes with an intermediate gear (1 on Starter),
o which meshes with another gear on the crankshaft (3 on Starter),
o which enagages the starter clutch via the clutch rollers (5 & 14 on Starter)
o if the starter is turning faster than the crank, clutch engages and turns crank via splined flange (4 on Stater),,, if engine is turning faster, then clutch does not engage
o note also that there is a primary drive gear (15 on Clutch) that is behind the crank gear (3 on Starter), this gear transmits crank power to the clutch and transmission.  This primary gear has an anti-lash setup on it that I had thought might be causing my grinding.  After replacing it, this was not the case.

From my MRF posting the parts that fixed it for me were either the starter clutch or flange (5 or 4), but I suspect mostly it was the starter clutch.

If I were you, given the info that I've gleaned I would replace the clutch rollers, caps and springs, along with the starter clutch.  If you want to do it in two steps to ensure that you're only replacing what's probably most necessary, I would replace the rollers, caps, and springs (6, 7, & 14), and if that isn't it, then replace the clutch (5).  Note also that the clutch rollers engage the crank gear (3) at the base.  This could also be the problem, but it wasn't for me.  Each time you open the cover it costs you a gasket, and parts shipping.  Your call.

How many miles/what year are on your Magna?  Like I said before, I think my premature clutch slippage and the starter problem were related to prior upkeep.

You are only the third person that I've heard have this problem.  I other person on MRF had it, but wasn't too concerned about fixing it.

I think I might still have some of the gears I replaced stored away, along with a right side cover gasket.  Unfortunately I do not have the parts that I recommend you change out first.

Rod...

[hootmon]

Wow Rod.. That was quite a post..
Are you looking at the same drawing that Bike Bandit uses (this is where I usually look at exploded views)...
I would probably agree in theory with your summation on the parts that are suspect...

I have a '94 and it has 50K+ on it (Speedo cable was broken when I bought the bike, so it could have as much as 60K on it.. I replaced the clutch about 5K ago, it slipped a bit when you cranked it on at high speed, but considering the age and miles, I don't consider the clutch replacement out of line.

I do not believe that the clutch slipping and starter issue are related to each other at all, with the exception that the bike is older an has miles on it. I only mentioned the clutch replacement in the last post so that people didn't think that the problem started by bad workmanship on my part while replacing the clutch...

I didn't see any damaged gears when I had the side cover off for the clutch change, but some of the parts to this appear to be behind the clutch basket if my memory serves me correct, which it often does not, so I may not have seen the damage if any exists.

Again I suspect you are correct on your analysis, and will shoot for the parts you indicated 1st, after I tackle the Carb shim job and replacing the throttle cables (they have never been replaced).

It sucks having insight into other peoples problems eh? It means you've been down that road and made the mistakes that will benefit others, if they are willing to listen... You seem to have gained experience with this, I will try to listen and gain wisdom from you, so I don't have to gain experience on my own...

Thanx

[lragan]

Wow Rod.. That was quite a post..

No joke!!  And I have been chastised on this forum for posting electronic gibberish!!  Which Greek lexicon were you using anyway??

[Lurkin]

Hey!  There's no gibberish, it all makes sense to me, that's all that matters 

Hootmon, yes sir, your bike is definitely older then mine and worthy of a new clutch.  Sorry, it just sounded too close.

Apologies for the length of the previous, but since no one prior to me had seen this problem, fixed it, and documented it in some way, I wanted it to be as clear as possible.

As for the part references in the above, they came from the parts diagrams from Hidy Honda Powersports, which I believe are exactly the same as all the other vendor's parts diagrams.

By the way, I also thought that the noise "had" to be gear related, just because of the sound.  I replaced the rollers, caps, and springs first (since it was reasonably cheap place to start), then moved on to replace every single gear in the starter path.  Finally I replaced the starter clutch housing and flange, then the problem was fixed.

Rod...

[hootmon]

Looks like the Pulse Generator drawing is much better (clearer) on BikeBandit site
http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/honda-motorcycle-vf750c-magna-1994/o/m2757 Electrical/Pulse Gen..
And it looks like they use the same numbering scheme.. Probably the clutch starter, because it is the most expensive...   
Any special things to look our for when taking these apart and reassembly? IE: the whole thing explode in your face when you take out the last bolt...  Or you have to have the fingers of a little Japanese technician to put them back together??

Once again.. Thanx for the insight.. BTW, it looks like your site
http://www.hidyhondapowersports.com/fiche_section_detail.asp
Has cheaper prices, so that's a Plus!!!

[hootmon]

Rod...
I found this video for a "starter clutch repair" on a V-65 on another forum.. It's pretty good considering there is not audio, but does have text info thoughout the process
Does it seem close to the process for the Gen 3 as well???
If we can get permission, can we put it up on Tips and Tricks????

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7272590578350336971

It came off http://v4hondabbs.com/index.php?topic=29592.0

[Lurkin]

Sorry, I didn't catch your second to last post above.  Answers to your last two posts follow.

> Probably the clutch starter, because it is the most expensive...   

Why it was last to be replaced on mine....

> Any special things to look our for when taking these apart and reassembly?

If you've been inside to change the clutch, you're halfway there to begin with.  Some notes on the video you posted:

o overall it applies to the Magna (right side cover is different, and the pegs/pedals are different), in fact some parts are the same, just not the expensive ones (I was looking for cheaper parts...)
o the peg that holds the idler gear likes to stick in the right side cover, not a big deal, just watch for it
o I didn't take the idler gear off to mess with the starter clutch, (watch for the washer behind the idler gear it you do pull the idler gear pin)
o good note on loosening the 3 clutch bolts before removing the clutch, much easier this way (trust me, learned this the second time in there)
o I used a hex key between the gears instead of the penny, good idea though, just don't lose it in there
o I bought new caps, I did not re-use the old ones
o don't forget the locktite where directed in vid and manual
o no grease on gasket, just some sealant in the middle (check the manual)

Rod.

[hootmon]

***UPDATE*** All good - just an update, no problems or questions below...

I purchased a used Starter clutch and starter gear off of e-bay. (with less miles than my 53K+)
I purchased new clutch springs and clutch cover gasket. (did not buy new rollers)

I drained most of the oil out of my crankcase (cold)
I had replaced the gasket when I replaced the clutch a while back. When I took off the clutch cover the gasket stayed on the motor and had no rips at all.
I took the starter clutch that I bought and replaced the springs only.
I installed this starter clutch and the new starter gear (Neather of mine seemed to have any tooth damage), but again, items with less milage than mine. I used a penny to lock the gears between the clutch basket and the starter clutch to remove and install the Starter clutch.. Beat the heck out of the penny, but worked like a charm.
Lock-tight & Torqued center nut to 65# and Starter Clutch nuts to 29#.
I cleaned the gasket on the motor with Alcohol as well as the surface of the clutch cover
I double checked the torque on my clutch springs (all good)
I put RTV gasket on the clutch cover and finger tightened. Let stand for about an hour, then torqued the bolts around the Clutch cover.
I re-added used oil (Amsoil 20-50 and will continue to run oil until May.)
Bike seems to be starting fine. (before it was 50/50).