Oh, No, Not The Clutch?

[ezrydr]

Well, as William Wallace said while they were drawing and quartering him, it's just one bloody thing after another innit?

Yesterday I was coming back from the supermarket when I started getting the oddest symptoms.  Gradually the bike started losing power - or rather it still had plenty of power, it just wasn't getting translated into forward motion.  Speed dropped steadily - I'd been doing 55, still accelerating, but now when I looked I was down to 45 and then 40 and continuing to drop.

Whatever was going on, the fourlane at busy hour was no place for it; I was already getting honked at and since I was obviously about to lose speed altogether, I hastened to get off onto the shoulder, which luckily was nice and wide at that point. 

Shut off the engine, figuring to give it some cool-down time - I'd heard of Magnas losing power in hot weather - but when I went to restart, while the engine came to life with its usual roar, the bike wouldn't move at all. 

And I looked down and checked and the little bellcrank that activates the clutch was moving just fine in response to pressure on the lever; so I didn't have a busted clutch cable, which had been my first thought.

A good old boy stopped and helped me push the bike to a nearby service station - damn good of him, on a hot afternoon with no shade; I didn't even know him - where I called the wrecking service and got a guy to come out with a truck and drive me and Maggie May home.  (Sixty bucks, not bad under the circumstances.) 

And there she sits in my yard, going nowhere; and I can't even do anything about it yet; whether or not I'm right about the nature of the problem, it's obviously going to cost some money to fix, and I'm just about broke till payday.  (Which luckily will be just a few days off; one thing about Social Security, they pay on time.) 

So meanwhile I thought I'd toss this sad story out in here for the group's views.

(1)  I am assuming that I've got a clutch problem - from the lack of any unusual noises, my guess is that I've simply got some fried clutch plates, because I can't think of anything else that would have those symptoms.  (Nothing to do with fuel supply, electrics, etc.; the engine runs perfectly, the power just isn't getting delivered to the wheel.)  And I did have a couple of situations recently in which I feathered the clutch excessively, and the right side cover was getting unusually hot right in that area.

BUT -

(2)  Has anyone here ever encountered a situation with those symptoms, in which it WASN'T the clutch?  Is there something else that can cause that kind of disconnect between engine and power train?

(3) Assuming it IS the clutch, what should I figure on having to replace?  Just the friction plates, or is anything else likely to need replacing?  (We're definitely talking replacement; whatever's gone wrong, it's obviously beyond simple adjustment.)

(4)  Any particular tricks or traps I should know about before I start wrenching?  (I do know a little about what's under that cover, because I once had to dissect the starter clutch.) 

(5)  Assuming I do have to replace the friction plates, what's a good make?  Barnett, maybe, or is that overkill? 

Any thoughts, while I wait for payday to roll in?

[hootmon]

Never seen a clutch loose so much, so fast...
I've got a question..
Did you recently change your oil and change oil type?

I would bet you used oil that has "friction modifiers"

That's the only thing I can think of that would cause such a quick loss of friction at the plates..
Usually when a clutch wears and slips it starts on hard acceleration in 5th gear, and becomes more noticeable in other gears and speeds over time.

Keep us posted.

[buster]

Ditto what Hootmon said, mine slowly got the point where it was adjusted to the extreme and would only engage at the very last bit of travel, and if I popped the clutch a little it would slowly slip and catch after the hand lever was all the way out, so I proactively (??) replaced just the friction plates and springs - steels were OK and I hear they usually are unless there's a lot of slipping and heating going over a long period of time to where it warps them.  It was a huge difference with the new Barnett plates and springs, a whole lot less slipping.

Here's in depth instructions from another site in case you're unlucky enough to not be able to change the oil and go.
http://v4musclebike.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1491
1.   Be sure to order a gasket for the side cover that you take off the engine when changing out the springs and plates.
2.   If the gasket sticks, try using a plastic edge gasket scraper first before using a metal one. The aluminum on the engine is really soft and can gouge easily.
3.   Watch the bolts on the side cover. The threads are very fragile and very easy to strip out just when removing them.

Good luck!

[ezrydr]

Interesting theory, but I haven't done anything funny with the oil - I'm old-fashioned enough to regard these additives and modifiers with a very skeptical eye.  And then too I'm something of a cheapskate. 

As a matter of fact I remember the last time I bought oil, I was accompanied by a good friend's wife (oh, shut up) and she was fascinated by the assortment of oil brands and types on the shelf.  And she said, "This is interesting - I had no idea there were different kinds of oil for cars and motorcycles."  So I explained to her that the "difference" was usually a high percent advertising mahoohah, and a normal bike ought to run just fine on any good-quality motor oil, though nowadays it was a good idea to check for any references to special reduced-friction additives and the like.

So that's how I know I didn't make any recent changes of the sort you're talking about.  And in fact the last time I changed makes of oil was some years ago when I stopped buying Castrol, in protest against BP's behavior concerning that oil spill in the Gulf.   

As to the peculiarity of such a sudden change in behavior, I didn't go into this before - and I see how my wording could be misleading - but for several reasons, mostly to do with my health, by far the greater part of my riding has been around town, at low speeds.  It's not been all that often that I've had a chance to get up into the higher gears.  And on this occasion I had just come out of a supermarket parking lot onto the fourlane, and the bike was running just fine as we accelerated up through the 40s.  Then when we hit the 55-mph marker, I started noticing that everybody was passing me; and a look at the speedo revealed that I hadn't gotten past 45 - and that was as high as she'd go, with the engine redlined in all the gears, and pretty quickly I started to lose even that.  By the time I pulled off and stopped, I was in parking-lot speed range. 

(It may be relevant that the 55-mph marker comes at the bottom of a hill, so there was some additional load; I usually shift down a notch going up that hill anyway.)

But in any case, as I say, I'm a cheapskate, so I will do a complete oil change and see what happens, before galloping off to order Barnett's fine products.  If it does no good, what the hell, it's a cheap enough experiment - damn sight cheaper than a full clutch set, that's for sure - and an extra oil change will probably help clean out the engine a bit, so I think that's what I'll do.

I just wish I knew the brands I was using.  That's the worst part about old age, you can't remember anything....

[ezrydr]

Huh.  Following your advice, I went out to the garage and found a couple of partial bottles - obviously left over from the last complete oil changes - but now I'm confused in a different way.  Because the two bottles were of different brands, and as I've said I don't usually go in for switching around.  And furthermore, one was of a type that I don't remember ever using before; not  the sort I'd usually go for, either....

One bottle - going by looks, the older of the two; the label was pretty scabby anyway - was Valvoline.  I couldn't make out much else, the label was so ratty, but apparently it claimed to be especially for 4-stroke motorcycles; "Superior wet clutch protection for maximum power transfer and smooth shifting," whatever that's supposed to mean.  Couldn't find a thing about friction-reducing additives, but as I say the label wasn't all that legible. 

The other bottle looked much more recent, but the label was a bit of a shocker:  "Pennzoil Platinum Full Synthetic 10W30."  No price tag showing but I bet it wasn't cheap.  Nothing said about friction or additives or any of that, though it too wasn't entirely readable in places - and the entire back-side label was entirely missing save for a few tiny scraps.  "Keeps pistons up to 40% cleaner" was the only specific claim I could find.

Neither of these is at all the kind of oil I'd even consider buying - the synthetic in particular is way outside my price range, at least for a complete change, though I suppose I might have grabbed a bottle just for top-up purposes, though Maggie May doesn't leak or burn a lot of oil.  So I'm at a loss - but as you know I was a very sick man around that time, and it's entirely possible I might have bought something without paying much attention to the details, or might even have read the label wrong.

But to your knowledge, is either of these products known for slippiness or other clutch problems?  Does either of them claim to have special friction-reducing additives?

I'm going to do a change, anyway.  Can't hurt...and I'll report on results.  Thanks for the input.

[hootmon]

I've used the Valvoline Motorcycle oil before, so you are safe there...
Not sure about the Pennzoil
Here are the specs:

    API SN, SM, SL and SJ
    ILSAC GF-5
    Exceeds ILSAC GF-5 engine cleansing and protection requirements

Interesting that this oil is made from Natural Gas... Hummmm How do you turn gas into oil? I do know there is Liquid Natural gas.. But still..
Usually gas is a by product of refining oil, not the other way around.. ANYWAYZ...

Now I've been told to look for a JASO rating on the oil to stay out of trouble with the clutch..
This seems to be a Motorcycle specific rating
IF you want to know more about Jaso HERE is some more info.

[ezrydr]

Thanks, Hoot.  I don't understand half of this stuff (Mama whacked me upside the head too many times growing up) but if you've had satisfactory results from the Valvoline that's good enough for me.  And I'm pretty sure I know where I can get it, within reasonable walking range; and as I recall the price wasn't too bad.

I've always liked Valvoline products anyway.

You do get some strange suggestions.  Somebody told me that I needed to be sure and use only Arab oil; but I had such a hell of a time getting that damn Arab into the engine I finally just gave up. 

[hootmon]

Since you are cheap (and yes it doesn't help now) but I try to buy my oil (Shell Rotella T6) at Walmart in about May.
they have it for about $ 23 / gallon, which is pretty cheap for full synthetic, plus it has a $5 off mail in coupon. . So it's some thing like $18 / gallon and I change my oil once a year (7-9K miles).
plus I but a Purolator Pure one oil filter for $5'ish bucks..
So for about $20 I have my annual oil change AND oil left over for topping off, not that I have  ever needed to do that. .

[ezrydr]

I went out to the garage again and poked around and found a good many empty oil bottles lying around.  (Did I mention I am also a slob?)  Guess confirmed; on the evidence, I've been using Valvoline 4-stroke synthetic  ever since dumping Castrol.

And never had a bit of clutch trouble; but then evidently I got hold of some Pennzoil - 10w30, too light especially in this hot summer.  How much, I don't know, but it's been since then that Maggie May, like her owner, didn't want to put her ass in gear. 

Despite all that I still don't really believe that an oil change is going to solve the problem.  But I'm definitely giving it a chance.

[ezrydr]

Well, wouldn't that blow your hat in the creek...starting to look as if I was right AND wrong, and the same for the volunteer advisors.

I did a complete oil change today:  same old reliable Valvoline 4-stroke that I've used for years.  And yippee ki yay, guess what?

Didn't do a damn thing to solve the problem.  SOMETHING was happening in there, I could feel it, as if it were trying to take hold but couldn't quite make it.  (Now I don't guarantee that wasn't just my imagination, but that was the feeling I got.)

Bitterly disappointed - though not  surprised - I stood there for a little while saying words it was wrong for me to know, and looking the bike over, picturing in my mind what the job was going to be like.

And thinking, too, about fixing that left turn signal, which was going to be next on the overhaul list....

Which was when it hit me.  What do we find closely adjacent to the left turn signal assembly?  Yes.  The upper end of the clutch cable.

And it took only a glance to determine that somehow the cable adjuster had worked its way all the way to twangy-tight - too damn tight, in other words.  Can't imagine how it happened, but she's got a  lot of miles and vibration can do funny things.

It was the work of minutes to attack the cable tension adjusters, both at the top end and down by the engine; I could feel it starting to relax, too - my God, it must have been tight as a banjo string.

When I had everything at about the midway point, I stuck the key in the igmo and uttered a silent prayer and hit the button.

And the V4 came to life with its usual leonine roar; and when I shifted down into first and let the clutch out, bavoom, we have forward motion.

I ran her just a little bit up and down the street - just in case the repair proved temporary, I didn't want to be caught too far from home - and everything seemed to work just fine.  Of course it's going to need some pretty extensive testing to make sure the repair took; but now I know (or think I do) where the problem lies, further adjustments shouldn't be a problem if needed.  I've still got plenty of room on those adjuster screws if she needs to be fiddled with any further.

So maybe, bash wood, I've got the problem solved - and I feel like a total fool for failing to check that cable tension, one of the most elementary items on the troubleshooting check list.

But I don't feel I wasted my money on that fresh oil.  Never hurts, does it?

[hootmon]

K.I.S.S

Always  a good rule to apply to problems!

[ezrydr]

KISS?  I'm sorry, Hoot, you're an ace dude and all that but you're just not my type. 

But we can still be friends.

[ezrydr]

Anyway, unfortunately the fix turns out not to have been fixed. Finally
got the bike on the street and at first it did seem to be running fine; but
then the bypass turned upward into a small and modest hill, and right away I
could tell I was in trouble - started losing power, wouldn't go above 45 and
even that required screaming her guts out. I would have turned and gone home but by this point we were at the top of the hill and about to head down the other side so I just throttled back and took a gravity ride down to the bottom, where there was a conveniently located Walgreen where I could pull into the parking lot and shut down and say Bad Words.

And I fiddled with the clutch cable some more and managed to get her going long enough to ride on home, but I held the speed well down and even then you could tell she wanted to start slipping and screaming again.

So there we are. It wasn't the oil, it wasn't a simple adjustment - which leaves
me, of course, back where I started: in the market for a new set of clutch
disks. (And, I guess, springs as well - might as well do it right.)

I wouldn't mind the expense so much - though God knows I've got better uses
for that money - but doing the work itself is going to be a job on the cob.
I don't have a garage (got a storage shed I could make do with but that's going to require major defoliation; I haven't mowed that back yard all summer) and the weather's turned hot again, no telling how long. Going to be a miserable, miserable job...and I can't really afford to wait for cooler weather because MM is the only wheels I've got.

At least I know most of the procedure; I've already had to pull that right side
cover, last year, when I rebuilt the starter clutch. Not that big a deal, as
I recall - but in this heat all deals are big.

Ever have one of those lives?

[hootmon]

I believe your initial problem was the cable.. BUT with that problem, you did enough damage to the discs that correcting the cable couldn't correct the loss of disc material from the slippage.
Now the question is how are the metal discs, did they warp under all the heat of the slippage, or are they OK?
There is a cost difference between the disc kit and a complete kit..
You may want to pull it apart and take a look before you buy (even though this slows down the process).
Just remember to also order a new gasket for the case.

Not that hard of a job... You can look on YOUTUBE and there are videos on what is entailed..

Good luck.. I'd help out.. BUT.. I'm in Florida..

[ezrydr]

I believe your analysis is right on the money. 

Money...oh, God, this isn't going to be cheap.  Just based on your experience, how much difference do you suppose there would probably be, between the disks and springs and a full kit?  I'd be willing to pay quite a bit to get this over with; and I don't altogether trust myself to analze the condition of the present plates and make a reliable judgment.  At the same time I'm not rich (living on Social Security) so I can't afford to waste my resources.

I have seen something like what you describe, in an old Kawasaki S-3.  The bike had been run - hard - over dirt, and got stuck a few times; and when I pulled it down sure enough, the clutch plates had been burned down by friction to the point that the whole assembly was just steel running against steel.  There wasn't a disk in the whole thing that I'd use to play Frisbee with.  (Dennis Kirk then proceeded to rip me off by selling me a short set.)

But I've worked on other clutches, notably my old Suzuki GS1000, so I am fairly confident I can do this.  The real horror is going to be the heat, which is going to be brutal - and I'll have to work outdoors in the sun, not having a garage.  Come to think of it, I've got a small nylon tarp I might be able to use as a sun shelter. 

In any case I agree that it's going to be best to tear the clutch down and look at those disks before placing any orders.

(And yes, you guys, I do know enough to replace that gasket....)

Meanwhile I'm grounded, not a fun condition under this Okie sun.  Well, onward and  upward....