In the past month, we have seen, by documentation on this message board (1 case) or by direct observation (2 cases at MOOTMAG 6) three cases of batteries overcharging, boiling out all the acid/water filler, and shutting Maggie down. Since I ride a 3rd gen subject to the same malady, I resolved to investigate this phenomenon, and solicit your assistance.
What I have learned so far:
1) Our rectifier/regulator must absorb all the energy that the alternator produces which does not go into the electrical system. More sophisticated systems have feedback from the regulator that excites the field coils in the alternator, so the alternator only produces what is needed. Our alternators are fixed magnet fields, so this is not possible. I suspect the system is capable of 18-20 volts when the regulator fails, but don't know for sure.
2) From Felicia's experience, it seems likely that there is a temperature problem which may not be catastrophic and irreversible, i.e. when it cools down, it works again.
3) The rectifier/regulator is mounted to the bottom of the battery case, which is plastic, and doesn't conduct heat away from the unit. This means that it depends almost entirely on air flow for cooling. It appears to me that most of the air over the unit comes right off the engine, and will be pretty hot to start with, especially if you are climging a long hill. Be careful in adding accessories, that you don't impede the airflow through this region.
4) It is possible that a battery problem can appear as a regulator problem. If one of the cells shorts, the liquid in the others will boil out. So be sure, by replacing the battery, that you actually have a regulator failure before replacing one. IF you start to boil the second battery, or if the battery voltage goes above 15.5v at 3000 rpm, then worry about the regulator. Do not run it if the voltage is over 15.5 volts at 3000 rpm, or 16 volts at any engine speed.
What to do about accessories is an open question. It seems obvious, if you are operating in high temperature, especially climbing hills, to reduce the current through the regulator by turning off accessories you don't really need. I have a switch on my extra lights out front so I can turn them off in these conditions, (or in slow traffic where I may be drawing down the battery because the alternator will not keep up with the total load); however, if the regulator is failing to control the voltage to the battery in these conditions, so that the battery boils, turning on these accessories will reduce the voltage to the battery (maybe saving it from boiling over) -- and , unfortunately, increase the heat delivered to the regulator module, perhaps further degrading its performance, or even causing catastrophic failure. Tough call. I don't have enough information yet to make this one.
I would like to know if anyone else has experienced a regulator failure that "heals itself" -- that is, normal operation is restored once it cools off.
If anyone would donate an old unit to be analyzed, I would like that, too. Operating or inoperating, both are valuable. One that still works at normal temperatures would be most informative.
I will update as I learn more.
When my regulator went out it did not boil the battery it simply stopped charging. Someone (possibly you) sent me testing instructions to check for bad stator or bad R/R , after determining that it was the regulator I priced a new regulator for $150.00 oem or $100.00 aftermarket. Lucky for me no one had one and I was too impatient to wait to order one. I replaced mine with the regulator from a 450 Rebel, that a friend had laying around his house. I added the second ground to the regulator case as that was the only difference in them. I get a steady 14 volt reading at any rpm . I have since added two 55 watt driving lights with no ill effects and it's been a couple of months with no problems. I think we're going to try the same fix on Guy Wheatley's Magna (the other regulator failure at Mootmag) before he chomps off and spends a 100 plus $$'s on a new one. We are also thinking of relocating it to a cooler place a litte farther from the engine. We'll let you know how it turns out.. If it is for sure the regulator that's bad I'm sure he will have a donor for your project.. Interested in what you come up with ..
Charles is right. I'm going to start looking in junk yards for an R/R from any honda and see if we can get it to work. If it works, I'll probably just leave it. I can't see dropping $150 if a free, or cheap one will do.
I'll be glad to send the old one to you for a postmortem.
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on June 17, 2008, 01:08:54 PM
When my regulator went out it did not boil the battery it simply stopped charging. Someone (possibly you) sent me testing instructions to check for bad stator or bad R/R , after determining that it was the regulator I priced a new regulator for $150.00 oem or $100.00 aftermarket. . If it is for sure the regulator that's bad I'm sure he will have a donor for your project.. Interested in what you come up with ..
So, Charles, do you still have the OEM dead one, or did it go into the trash? IF you have it, I will pay postage for you to send it to me.
I'll look, but I think that it was the first broke part I've ever thrown away :-?..
You and me both. At some point, the garage, the attic, the shop, the barn, every nook and cranny gets full and somethin's gotta go!!
Glad to see someone trying to tackle this issue.
I don't want to jinx myself........ are there certain years that trouble is popping up on, so far so good on my 94 model, are you keeping track of that? Maybe the ones who have had failures should post their year models & miles or PM you to see if it pertains to a frame of time, maybe Honda used a different mfg at some point.
If it is a overheating issue, could a small "computer type" fan be fastened to the fins?
I have noticed several different models of bikes with the regulator located on the outside away from the engine and more exposed to more airflow. I am thinking this might be an alternative to te Magnas regulator location. My magna is a 97 with about 36,000 miles, but my regulator didn't cause a boil over, it just quit charging..
It would also help to know the total electrical load typically run on those bikes and what their typical riding conditions were, e.g. stop-and-go traffic, high ambient temperatures, etc. So far as I can tell, all the 3G Magnas used the same regulator assembly by Honda P/N, and if Honda follows the same part numbering practice that some other Japanese companies use, every vendor's part gets a unique Honda internal P/N.
It does seem odd that the design team seemed to go to great lengths to avoid adopting any common sense thermal management practices. How the design engineer could not only provide no significant heat-sinking for such a high-wattage assembly but at the same time locate it in a low-airflow section of the bike and surround its heat-sensitive components with thermal insulation just boggles the mind.
The VFR crowd has been battling this for a while, and they have some good information about it on the VFR World FAQ: http://www.hondavfr.org/faq7_2.html (http://www.hondavfr.org/faq7_2.html). They've found that replacement reg/rec from Electrex USA (now ElectroSport - http://www.electrosport.com/ (http://www.electrosport.com/)) is much more reliable than the OEM box. There isn't a direct replacement listed on ElecroSport's site, but I bet something up there would work. For instance, the CMX450 Rebel is listed at $99, and as listed above, that can be made to work.
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on June 17, 2008, 10:39:12 PM
I have noticed several different models of bikes with the regulator located on the outside away from the engine and more exposed to more airflow. I am thinking this might be an alternative to te Magnas regulator location. My magna is a 97 with about 36,000 miles, but my regulator didn't cause a boil over, it just quit charging..
...and the rectifier on the first gen bikes are located on the side outside of the frame, presumably for maximum cooling effect. I don't recall hearing of significant rectifier failure issues on the earlier models. :grin: *knocking on poly-laminated wood fiber product desk....* :-P
Quote from: v4_jeff on June 18, 2008, 08:15:30 AM
The VFR crowd has been battling this for a while, and they have some good information about it on the VFR World FAQ: http://www.hondavfr.org/faq7_2.html (http://www.hondavfr.org/faq7_2.html). They've found that replacement reg/rec from Electrex USA (now ElectroSport - http://www.electrosport.com/ (http://www.electrosport.com/)) is much more reliable than the OEM box. There isn't a direct replacement listed on ElecroSport's site, but I bet something up there would work. For instance, the CMX450 Rebel is listed at $99, and as listed above, that can be made to work.
That's very good information, Jeff. It also has me thinking that if there were more room under the seat that a custom-designed switch mode dc-to-dc converter would fit the bill, although it would have to have good shielding to keep it from causing problems with the electronic ignition. It would still have to have a rectifier capable of passing the current demanded by the electrical load, but it would keep the regulator from being a load dump for the alternator. The coils and filter capacitors would be the primary drivers for the size requirements. I may have a crack at it to see if it can be done easily and cheaply.
Lawrence,
I still have the regulator I took off Baby Vee (96 Magna) in the garage. E-mail your address to me and I will ship it to you for experimentation.
Dave
Thanks, Dave. I sent you a PM.
FYI:
I rode home with the side covers off and seemed to not have any problems. Got home and after I cooled down I took the seat off and had no boil over from the battery. I have changed the battery out for a new one.
I did not change the regulator/rectifier and this morning decided to take it to work and help open. Started fine and not quite a half mile from home it sputtered and popped and went dead. I pushed her home and checked the battery - it was charged. no lights - nothing. So today I have spent the latter part of the morning and the early afternoon getting that piece of S@%!T battery box out so I could get to the r/r so I can replace it. Who designed that thing anyway???
Now that that's done I just have to wait for pay day and I'll get the new part. I'll let you know how things are going.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The VFR crowd has been battling this for a while, and they have some good information about it on the VFR World FAQ: http://www.hondavfr.org/faq7_2.html. They've found that replacement reg/rec from Electrex USA (now ElectroSport - http://www.electrosport.com/) is much more reliable than the OEM box. There isn't a direct replacement listed on ElecroSport's site, but I bet something up there would work. For instance, the CMX450 Rebel is listed at $99, and as listed above, that can be
That's very interesting because guys on the Magna Riders Forum have all said go OEM, that the aftermarket ones don't last worth a flip. The R/R on my 2000 went out last year. It was a case of not charging enough (12.8V). It did not boil over.
Quote from: Indonlire on June 21, 2008, 03:08:15 PM
FYI:
I rode home with the side covers off and seemed to not have any problems. Got home and after I cooled down I took the seat off and had no boil over from the battery. I have changed the battery out for a new one.
I did not change the regulator/rectifier and this morning decided to take it to work and help open. Started fine and not quite a half mile from home it sputtered and popped and went dead. I pushed her home and checked the battery - it was charged. no lights - nothing. So today I have spent the latter part of the morning and the early afternoon getting that piece of S@%!T battery box out so I could get to the r/r so I can replace it. Who designed that thing anyway???
Now that that's done I just have to wait for pay day and I'll get the new part. I'll let you know how things are going.
Felicia, if the battery is charged, the engine should run, even if the alternator/regulator is kaput. I think you have a blown fuse somewhere. Guy finally found a dead fuse on his bike, and he is back in business, as I understand it, for the price of a fuse -- well after the battery he put in at MOOTmag6, anyway...
According to the service manual, there are five fuses. Four are in a fuse box somewhere to the left of the battery under the seat, and (most likely problem, it seems to me), a main fuse (30A) in the starter relay housing, just to the left and aft of the battery box.
Glad you made it home ok, sorry to hear your having trouble again.. When we charged Guys battery Sat morn at camp it started up and ran even with the regulator unplugged, but voltage was dropping to fast to try riding. Odd that yours wouldn't crank with a charged battery?? Hope you get it fixed soon. I think Guy picked up a used regulator to make sure that was the problem before invested in a new one.. Keep us posted on how it goes..
Quote from: Indonlire on June 21, 2008, 03:08:15 PM
So today I have spent the latter part of the morning and the early afternoon getting that piece of S@%!T battery box out so I could get to the r/r so I can replace it. Who designed that thing anyway???
My guess: Japanese engineer that is still upset about that A Bomb thing back in '45 or some HD engineer retread.
Welcome to the club. See Greg for your t-shirt, "Battery boil overs are a pain in my rectifier"
Received the spent unit from Dave today. Performing the simple tests in the shop manual (off bike resistance measurements), it passes.
Waiting to show my chemist son the potting material to see if we can remove it without damaging the guts of the beast.
After studying all the shop manuals and schematics, I am of the opinion that on hot days, and when turning 3000+ rpm consistently, one should operate all the accessories one has. It appears that the system operates by shunting excess current from the (six diode) rectifier pack into the regulator to keep it from flowing into the battery, so the lights I use on my bike, for example, effectively remove this current and the dissipation associated with it from the regulator pack. Who'da thought?? :?
(I turn the lights off when idling in traffic for long periods, as the system doesn't generate enough to supply the whole load under these conditions, and draws down the battery as a result.)
Theory du jour -- high temperatures cause the unit to fail to absorb the extra current which is then injected into the battery/electrical system, causing the battery to overcharge and boil away the electrolyte fluid. This excess current can also cause the main (30A) fuse to blow.
Watch this space for updates as I learn more... :cool:
Quote from: lragan on June 24, 2008, 05:39:58 PM
so the lights I use on my bike, for example, effectively remove this current and the dissipation associated with it from the regulator pack.
I was using the same train-of-thought, that my extra 110 watts of lights I run has helped my regulator.
Since my battery box continues to be a problem as it is broke and various fixes hasn't worked if the 1/8" piece of 1-1 1/4' strap running under the regulator and holds the battery box up will be holding heat in or act as a heat exchanger and allow more heat to be removed. :?:
and I still think that directing some fresh air via a garage engineered pvc pipe arrangement to the rectifier would help this problem immensely. The rectifier is closed in behind the engine and must be subjected to higher than normal temperatures there in the summer.
I wonder if we were to install standoffs (spacers if you will) so the reg/rec had an air space between it and the battery box if this would also help......
Interesting idea, Greg. In still air, my guess is that the thermal conductivity of the plastic box will move more heat than convection in a narrow gap.
I think we all agree that we need better air flow -- and fresh air, not coming off the engine, would be a big help. If we had good ventilation over the box, exposing the flat side to flowing air would definitely be a help.
I confess that I have not laid down to look at mine. As I interpret the manual, the fins are oriented side to side instead of longitudinally under the battery box. I don't see any reason that we would get much lateral air flow in this area. We might have better cooling by reorienting the regulator.
If we cobble together a method to increase the airflow over the regulator, we should for sure orient the regulator so the air flows between the fins, not across them.
The regulator is approximately 17" from the road, 8" from the engine, 1&3/4" above the swingarm, and 3" from the rear tire. There is a 5x7" opening in the swingarm just in front of the regulator, the overflow reservoir is the closest thing besides the battery box, probably 1" away. Has anyone taken a survey to see how many and how often this problem occurs, has anyone ever had a replacement regulator go bad? Also has anyone with a 2000 or later model had a problem yet. Here are some pics of the regulator placement for those of you that haven't went digging around looking :D.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_24122.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2413.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2411.jpg)
PS does anyone have a temp gauge with a remote sensor that could get some temps at the regulator while riding and while just sitting idling?
Charles, thanks for the pictures. It is as the manual shows, with the fins running across the bike.
Also, from the pix, it would appear that the unit is already spaced away from the battery box, so there is at least the possibility of air flow over the back of the unit.
"PS does anyone have a temp gauge with a remote sensor that could get some temps at the regulator while riding and while just sitting idling?"
This is also a good idea. Could be accomplished with a thermocouple under a mounting bolt. I'll sniff around to see if I can borrow one.
Maybe our group is not a statistically significant sample -- I am not a statistician -- but it seems to me that three malfunctions in our group of a few (how many 3rd gens do you suppose were represented at MOOTmag6? -- I think the earlier models dominated, at least in my memory) is indicative of a systemic problem.
The manuals do not mention a design change in model year 2000, but if it was made without changing the connections or physical configuration, they (Honda engineers) would not have to reveal it...
Lawrence the reference to 2000 and up was more related to age than model change, sorry, didn't make myself clear :-?. Not to make it sound like there is not a problem, it just seems like the same thing has happened with batteries, headlights, and several other non specific parts. As far as the direction of the fins, remember my regulator is off of a Honda Rebel 450, so you would actually have to check a stock regulator to be sure. The small white ground wire you see on the edge of the regulator is the extra ground I added that is missing from the older regulators. If heat is the culprit which would be easier, diverting heat from the engine away from the regulator or diverting cooler air toward the regulator?
Charles, I think your module is exactly the same as the Magna one with exception of the wiring.
As for modifying the airflow, the only thing I have thought of involves putting "gills" on the front of the side panels to scoop some fresh air into the area. With all the effort I put into painting them, I am not ready to go that route just yet. It would also make them more susceptible to spontaneous removal at high speeds...
One might create some sort of air scoop under the bike, but I haven't really looked to see what might be possible... :?
Options so far;
Add air via duct to rectifier
Divert engine air away from rectifier
Move to another location
Vents in the Side Covers Front and/or back.
Add a "computer type" fan to the rectifier similar to your CPU fan.
Possibility - add additional lights to use more of the Alt. output watts to minimize excess wattage rectifiers have to deal with
I would think putting air exits on the back side of the side covers would work better... Need to remove air before more air will enter, otherwise it will simply "stack up" so to speak.
Maybe some louvers to extract air???
I have not gone back and read everything so this may be already said or not related. The coworker that just got a 94 VFR his regulator just went out. The new and improved voltage regulator for the VFR uses the frame and now has fins to dissipate the heat on the regulator.
In his research once they over heat or run hot they are on borrowed time and will leave you on the side of the road at the worst time. Like there is a good time to be left on the side of the road. There attempt to help the situation was to put a small computer CPU fan on the regulator.
Since I have seen quite a few bikes with the regulators exposed somewhere on the side usually, and there is ample room on the right side right behind the side cover on the Magna I think I might try it there for a while. If nothing else just to see what it will look like.. It would surely have to be cooler that far from the engine?
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on June 25, 2008, 11:54:12 AM
PS does anyone have a temp gauge with a remote sensor that could get some temps at the regulator while riding and while just sitting idling?
I will see if i can do that. I have a temperature probe for my voltage meter.
http://troybuiltmodels.com/newsite/planeacc/engines/PXTEP1.html Here is a neat little heat gun that might work.....
Temperature
before start up Reg = 25C front of tail pipe = 25 C
3 minutes of idle Reg = 25C front of tail pipe = 36 C and climbing
15 minute highway drive to work Reg = 60C front of tail pipe = 101 C and stable.
25 C= 77 F
36 C= 96 F
60 C= 140 F
101 C= 213 F
If I could get a probe up to the regulator and have a way to hold it in place, I might be able to do it.
A infrared thermometer would work as Greg stated and I might have a friend who has one I could borrow. Mine does have an aluminum strap under the regulator. Don't wait on me though.
A lot of if's here.
Terry I think I still have my battery box from my 94 Magna if your interested I will see if I can locate it.
Now Jerry, you are actually want me to work! I don't know how much they run but it has been more the difficulty it looks to replace. I didn't know if they all break or not so I hopefully remedied that with a makeshift support which may cause more problems.....but it's done for now.
Thanks,I will remember you might have one though.
Quote from: Magnum Magna on June 26, 2008, 03:10:15 PM
Temperature
before start up Reg = 25C front of tail pipe = 25 C
3 minutes of idle Reg = 25C front of tail pipe = 36 C and climbing
15 minute highway drive to work Reg = 60C front of tail pipe = 101 C and stable.
25 C= 77 F
36 C= 96 F
60 C= 140 F
101 C= 213 F
Well, there we have it, folks. Great job Robert!! :-D
With a
case temperature of 101C (and he wasn't climbing long hills on Talimena drive!) it is easy to imagine silicon junction temperatures of 160C -200C. Most reliability studies recommend a max junction temperature in the 140C range. Of course, this depends heavily on how the components are mounted. Getting the potting compound out without destroying the guts is a bigger challenge than I thought, but I am working on it.
Robert, if you still have this set up, and have extra lights or other significant loads that you can turn on or off, it would be interesting to see the effect of doing so. My prediction is that the temperature will go
up when you turn them off. If you don't have them behind a switch where this is easy, then don't bother. Having to stop and disconnect stuff is not only way too much trouble, but introduces uncertainty into the measurements.
Definitely need some mod to increase airflow over the rectifier/regulator module. So far, I have seen:
1) Mount a computer muffin fan adjacent to move some air across it.
2) Modify the side panels to include slots or fins near the front.
3) Mount some type of scoop that pulls in air from under the bike.
4) Remount the rectifier/regulator module on the side of the bike against the frame.
Any others?
I have one set of driving lights. If I ride it into work tomorrow (weather permitting) I will use the lights. I will see if the temperature of the regulator is different. I will measure the case temperature also next time. I measured the regulator at the base of the fins touching the regulator. I measured the temperature not as riding but as soon as I got off the bike left it idling took off the side cover and then measured.
Quote from: lragan on June 27, 2008, 08:16:08 AM
2) Modify the side panels to include slots or fins near the front.
3) Mount some type of scoop that pulls in air from under the bike.
Be careful not to have to mush positive air flow and blow off your side covers.
Quote from: Magnum Magna on June 26, 2008, 03:10:15 PM
Temperature
before start up Reg = 25C front of tail pipe = 25 C
3 minutes of idle Reg = 25C front of tail pipe = 36 C and climbing
15 minute highway drive to work Reg = 60C front of tail pipe = 101 C and stable.
25 C= 77 F
36 C= 96 F
60 C= 140 F
101 C= 213 F
To many variables for a conclusive conclusion but today with driving lights on.
Regulator 58C = 136F
rear of case 51C = 123F
Can you do a check with your running lights off?
What total wattage are your lights?
Unless there was a dramatic change in the weather to the cool side, leaving your lights on is the easiest "fix" to the overtemperature regulator problem. That is a big difference! I have seen curves that indicate a factor of 10 improvement in mean time to failure with a 10 degree Centigrade decrease in junction temperature, so this much difference will be huge.
I learned something else from this thread. DMM's with thermocouple inputs are not all that expensive, and I have always wanted a thermocouple set up, soooooo yesterday I ordered a DMM with thermocouple inputs and two thermocouples.
My hope is to mount a thermocouple under one of the mounting bolts against the case, put the meter in my tank bag to hold it in place so I can read it, ride a ways, turn the lights on, etc.... anyway you get the idea -- a real time comparison with and without lights.
We shall see. More later...
Charles, to answer your question about problems with r/r on 2000 and later models... I will say no, not yet... My bike is a 2001 with 12000 miles on it. Anyone else have problems on a "newer" model yet?? Or is it all on bikes with some "age" on them??
I got Maggie put back together and running again. I got a used regulator for $25.00. I had to change out the plugs. Like Charles mentioned, there is an extra green (ground) wire on the Magna. I just combined the two green wires on the Magna plug onto the single green wire coming from my used regulator.
One potential problem actually presented an opportunity. The case that the battery and tools sit in had one of the brackets for the mounting screw broken off.
(http://www.guywheatley.com/tcpics/reg070408-01.JPG)
I'd already mounted the regulator. As you can see in the photo, I attaced a wire to one of the mounting bolts. I was going to use this as a case ground.
(http://www.guywheatley.com/tcpics/reg070408-02.JPG)
I tried to reattach the original screw bracket using an expoy designed for hard plastics. It broke the first time I put pressure on it. So, I decided to make another bracket. It occurred to me that if I made it out of conductive metal, and attached it to one of the regulator mounting bolts, well you get the idea. Case ground.
(http://www.guywheatley.com/tcpics/reg070408-03.JPG)
(http://www.guywheatley.com/tcpics/reg070408-04.JPG)
Here it is mounted.
(http://www.guywheatley.com/tcpics/reg070408-05.JPG)
From the battery case side.
(http://www.guywheatley.com/tcpics/reg070408-06.JPG)
I put her back together and fired her up. I get a steady 14 volts, at any rpm. Cool.
The last thing was the battery. Charles told me to at least try charging the old one before buying a new one. When I started to charge it, I discovered that the battery acid had been boiled out. I keep and old battery around for a core exchange. When I need a battery, I'd just grab the old one and exchange it before having to pull the bad one out of my vehicle. I drained the acid out of my core battery, ran it through a coffee filter and dumped it in my dry bike battery. I checked it before I even stuck the charger to it and wha-la. 12 volt by just replacing the electrolyte.
I put her back together and took her around the block. We'll see how she holds up over the next few weeks.
Hanging out with the MOOT guys is paying off. Before that, I'd have just hauled it to the Honda place. $150.00 for a regulator, $50.00 for a battery. Who knows how much for the case. Say $50.00. $250 for parts, another $250 labor plus tax and I'm over $500.
Instead, $25.00 for a used regulator. I like this way better.
Nice patch job, Guy. Hope it works for you. Keep us informed here.
Thanks for the pictures. The metal strap may provide some thermal benefits as well as a case ground. If it was thicker, it would conduct heat better. Is it made of aluminum?
You may encounter an electrolysis issue where the aluminum strap (if that is what it is, actually) contacts the steel frame. A little moisture, significant electrical current, over time = corrosion. There are conductive greases designed for copper "pigtailing" of alluminum wire which can effectively exclude the oxygen from the joint, obviating corrosion. My last bottle finally dried up, and I haven't looked for it lately.
Do you still have the ground wires hooked up too? If so, they may carry most of the current, I don't know.
Well I will look at checking my voltage tomorrow to see if it is 14V at 3000 RPMs. I am glade you got it fixed.
I check the voltages with no engine load in neutral the effective voltages were 14 volts at idle ( 900), 3000 and 4000 and 5000 RPMs
When they design heat dissipation they normally put thought and hopefully testing for verification of effectiveness. The fins run from side to side not front to back. I wonder if the fins would work better if the air would flow across the fins or does the side to side layout catch the upward draft hold the air it for a second then let the heat off with the slower action of the wind in the fins.
Quote from: Magnum Magna on July 06, 2008, 07:19:01 PM
When they design heat dissipation they normally put thought and hopefully testing for verification of effectiveness. The fins run from side to side not front to back. I wonder if the fins would work better if the air would flow across the fins or does the side to side layout catch the upward draft hold the air it for a second then let the heat off with the slower action of the wind in the fins.
I did speculate that fins running parallel to the bike would achieve better cooling, but that was based on a naive assumption that airflow at this point was along the axis of the bike. The point is, I don't have a clue what the airflow pattern looks like under the battery box. :?
Short of mounting a video camera and some small strips of thin plastic under there, and running the bike at speed while recording, I don't know how to find out. I don't plan to do this, by the way.
I am still waiting for the rest of my instrumentation package to arrive to run dynamic temperature tests. I will be away on business for a couple of weeks starting next week, so it may be a while before I get to dofurther work on this problem.
With the rear tire so close to the regulator I wonder if there is a wind flow direction as much as just wind turbulance?
Iragan:
I'm not real sure what the metal is. I'd assumed it was aluminum. It came out of a corrosive environment in a film processor. It had grounding wires attached to it from the main electronics board. The surface had whitish blemishes I'd assumed was aluminum-dioxide. But when I started working with it, I was surprised to fine it mailable. It bends as easily as copper. I did check it with a ohm meter to be sure it really was conductive.
I'll be keeping an eye on that strap for corrosion.
Guy, thanks for your quick answer.
Aluminum (pure) is quite soft, and very malleable. I have never encountered pure aluminum. It almost always comes as an alloy. The most common iare called "6061" or "6063". Once long ago I think maybe I knew what these numbers meant, but that knowledge has escaped me. I found this link on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy
As they allude to there, aluminum will "cold flow" -- meaning that extended time and pressure will cause it to "squish" out of shape. Probably not a problem with the strap you have, but back in the 60's, during a copper shortage, a lot of homes in the Dallas area were wired with aluminum -- and caused a lot of fires due to cold flow and dissimilar metals corrosion issues.
I owned two homes that were so wired. One could alleviate the problem with tight spring wire nuts, a short length of copper wire, and some of the conductive grease that I mentioned earlier. Every connection to a switch or socket had to be patched in this manner. Big pain. Interesting side note -- when I finished with the home that we were living in with our young children, I called a friend and asked him to help me remember if there were any boxes I hadn't opened. After reflecting a moment, he recalled the one in the AC closet that disabled the indoor unit. When I went to patch it, it was very hot. That phone call and friend probably saved my home, and possibly the lives of my children. Whew!!
Iragan:
Thanks for the wiki link. I too lived in a house with aluminium wiring. I remember be surprised at the thought of wire made from what I'd always thought of as a very brittle material. I assumed (falsely it turns out) that the wire was alloyed for malleability.
I never had the entire house reqwired because of cost, but I did run several copper runs, and of course all new wiring was copper going back to the breaker box.
The Wiki link was both interesting and instructive. It gives particular warning to galvanic reaction with aluminium and stainless steel. I'm sure the maggie frame is steel, but not stainless. I'll really keep a close eye on it for the next month or two.
Howyadoin,
I've been bitten by the regulator bug on my '94. I was wondering if anyone has any tips on removing the battery box to get to the regulator, or is it such a PITA that I should take the wrench 'n socket through the top approach that I've seen?
Thanks!
-Mark
Mark,
I think you have to remove the Rear Fender and it slides out the back.
Quote from: lragan on July 07, 2008, 03:43:59 PM
As they allude to there, aluminum will "cold flow" -- meaning that extended time and pressure will cause it to "squish" out of shape. Probably not a problem with the strap you have, but back in the 60's, during a copper shortage, a lot of homes in the Dallas area were wired with aluminum -- and caused a lot of fires due to cold flow and dissimilar metals corrosion issues.
In that application, would the problem be "cold-flowing" or electromigration? In discussions I had with engineers at Siemens, they told me that research had shown that electromigration was the culprit, which was why the problem was most prevalent at high-current/high-voltage connections in panels and at junction boxes for heavy loads such as A/C. All conductors carrying current are susceptible to forming voids in the material over time, with current density being the greatest contributor to the problem and energy per charge carrier being another significant factor. (Note that this isn't the same mechanism for failure as resistive heating effects, so just keeping the conductor cold doesn't help much.) Aluminum and its alloys are simply more susceptible to this effect than copper.
The screws and plates on the switches and outlets were supposedly "safe" for use with aluminum wire, meaning that someone somewhere had determined that the dissimilar metals would not cause electrolysis issues. Many of the connections were loose, as the wire had deformed and relaxed the pressure between the screw, wire, and back plate the screw went into. I have been told that it was a "cold flow" problem, and finding these contacts loose seemed to confirm that. As I recall, a temporary fix was to open every box and tighten all the screws, which I chose not to do. Instead, I installed copper "pigtails" consisting of a short (3" or so) length of wire which went under the screw, and a wire nut with some conductive bearing grease in the wire nut.
The really large connections, as from the power meter to the distribution panel, could not be fixed in this manner. For these, I opened the panel every three or four years and retightened the screws -- and I was always able to tighten them, even though I had pulled them as tight as I could get at the last inspection.
This problem did not seem to show up until ~10-15 years after initial installation.
I suspect that alloys which reduce this cold flow property are less conductive, and certainly less malleable, making them unattractive for wire.
Electromigration is another issue. We encounter that in very thin metals, especially aluminum, in semiconductor interconnects. Inspection with a scanning electron microscope show pieces of aluminum that shear out and pop up from the surface, little "hillocks". It is dependent on temperature (exponentially), current (linearly) and time (linearly). Copper interconnect of the same thickness are much more robust. I have never seen the problem in copper interconnects. In fact, just a bit of copper (like 3%) in the aluminum sputtering operation drastically reduce the phenomenon in aluminum interconnects. Almost all aluminum interconnect (and most interconnect in integrated circuits is still aluminum) use 3% copper.
I suppose one could settle the question if there was a box that was never used -- such as a socket behind a dresser for 15 years or so. I am sure I had those, but this many years after the fact, I cannot remember which connections were looser. All I can say is that the wire visibily flattened to a large degree -- much more so than copper.
Well, I fiinally got around to taking temperature data today. First, an explanation of the procedure. I obtained a cheap ($22) DMM at the local Harbor Freight tools which has a temperature probe included, consisting of a type K thermocouple. Not terribly well calibrated, as when it is immersed in ice water, it shows 2oC. (Henceforth noted at 2C, etc., to avoid finding the superscript button every time.) Nonetheless, it will give more accurate results than an infrared sensor, which is based on an emisivity assumption.
After about 30 minutes trying to tighten one of the mounting screws over the thermocouple, I gave up and mounted it against a fin using the lock washer shown in the first photo. (yes, I know it is out of focus, but there isn't much room between the regulator and the pavement!)
I ran the wire up the right side of the bike, as shown in the second photo, to stay away from the chain on the left.
Then I mounted the DMM in the map compartment of my tank bag, as shown in the last photo.
Today, I ran the test.
Before startup -- 29C
After 3 min at 3000 rpm or less -- 57C
Riding at 55 mph in 5th gear stabilizes at 66C
Turned on 100 watts riding lights -- stabilizes at 65C
When I slowed down to street traffic speed -- 73C
Parked at the bank -- just stopped -- 76C
After 3 minutes or so -- returned to bike - 57C
I rode in and out of traffic, at various speeds and gears, keeping engine generally 3000-5000 rpm, and never saw temps above 75C while in motion.
Conclusions:
1) My assertion that running extras reduces the dissipation may be correct, but just barely. Other factors, including bike speed and engine speed have greater effect.
2) While case temperature in the range of 75C is troublesome, it is not disastrous. Depending on how effectively the heat is removed from the circuitry to the case, reasonable junction temperatures are possible, even likely. If we were running case temperatures nearer 100C, we would probably see a much higher failure rate.
It is not clear how orientation of the fins would effect the outcome, but it seems to me, given the short time it takes the case temperature to stabilize, and how quickly it is affected by motion of the bike, even orientation to the wind at lower speeds, it doesn't seem to me to be a change that would make much difference.
Thermal rise is a linear phenomenon, so on a hotter day, the difference between 29C (84F) and, say, 38C (100F) would add directly to the above readings.
One could argue that I would get a higher reading just under the bolts, as the edges of the fins are already cooler than the body of the case. This is most certainly true, but I doubt the difference is more than 3 - 4 degrees C.
So, where does all this leave us in the struggle to keep the regulators operational and the batteries from boiling out? :???:
I think we need either a regulator with a more efficient and robust design, or a method to get a good thermal mount of the units we have to the frame of the bike.
It is not clear to me that the development effort to design a more efficient and robust regulator is justified from the size of the available market. If some of you mechanical types could design a way to get a good hard mount to the frame, that seems the easiest approach. But then, the easiest approach is always to get someone else to do the work, eh?? :lol:
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Quote from: The_Raven on July 10, 2008, 10:36:32 AM
Howyadoin,
I've been bitten by the regulator bug on my '94. I was wondering if anyone has any tips on removing the battery box to get to the regulator, or is it such a PITA that I should take the wrench 'n socket through the top approach that I've seen?
Thanks!
-Mark
Mark, I didn't take mine out, but was able to get to the mounting nuts from the bottom with a short 3/8" ratchet and a 10mm socket. Don't know if I could have extracted the unit, but it looks like I could take it out over the swing arm after detaching the leads.
Good luck with it.
Converted to Fahrenheit.
Before startup --------------------------------29C = 84.2 F
After 3 min at 3000 rpm or less ------------- 57C = 134.6 F
Riding at 55 mph in 5th gear stabilizes at----66C = 150.8 F
Turned on 100 watts riding lights stabilized- 65C = 149.0 F
When I slowed down to street traffic speed --73C = 163.4 F
Parked at the bank -- just stopped ----------- 76C = 168.8 F
After 3 minutes or so -- returned to bike ----- 57C = 134.6 F
That is similar values other then the 3 minute idle but you had it at 3000 and I had it at 900 RPM
Howyadoin,
OK, done deal! I replaced the regulator, and things appear to be in order. 13V at idle, 14V at 3K, no sparks, smoke or other drama... Nice to be back on two again!
Not an easy job, since removing the rear fender wasn't practical; the mounts for my Leatherlyke bags are tough to get off, so I unbolted the battery box and was able to manipulate it enough to get a socket on it from below for the left nut, and a side angle for the right. I got out of it for $50 for a used OEM piece off eBay, which is nice considering my local dealer quoted me $205 for the part, and probably another $150-200 in labor! (Did I mention that I'm a cheap bastid?) Oh, and a new battery, but she was due for that anyway.
Thanks everybody for the timely responses... tomorrow's our club BBQ and I would have felt like a putz rolling in in the cage!
Now there's still the matter of the GL1200 with the toasted stator, but that's a story for another time (and place)...
Off to polish!
Glad to hear your back up and running 8). The stator problem has turned me off some nice looking Goldwings, I've heard ya got to break the case apart to get to the stator, is that correct? The stator on the Magna is actually easier to get to than the regulator. Anyway, like I said glad ya got er fixed..
I was givin an old regulator at on of the wrench sesions. I have the intention of disecting it to get a full understanding of what is in it and how its asembled.
My "plan" is to develop a hardened version of this unit using more robust parts.
As an Electrical Engineer I have access to and use PC board creating software and can easily make a more robust unit.
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on July 13, 2008, 12:02:03 AM
Glad to hear your back up and running 8). The stator problem has turned me off some nice looking Goldwings, I've heard ya got to break the case apart to get to the stator, is that correct? The stator on the Magna is actually easier to get to than the regulator. Anyway, like I said glad ya got er fixed..
Basically, you have to pull the engine to replace the stator on the GW. I'm opting for the "Poorboy" mod, which involves mounting an alternator from a Geo Metro and driving it off the front crank pulley. It doesn't require engine removal. I'll be doing that some time next month. Big fun!
Quote from: Len Averyt on July 13, 2008, 12:27:43 AM
My "plan" is to develop a hardened version of this unit using more robust parts.
Sign me up for the "hardened version"! SInce my battery goes dead rather quick after idling with the cooling fan on i'm sure I might be needing one soon.
Quote from: Len Averyt on July 13, 2008, 12:27:43 AM
IMy "plan" is to develop a hardened version of this unit using more robust parts.
"hardened version" Will it be protected from EMP? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Quote from: Len Averyt on July 13, 2008, 12:27:43 AM
I was givin an old regulator at on of the wrench sesions. I have the intention of disecting it to get a full understanding of what is in it and how its asembled.
My "plan" is to develop a hardened version of this unit using more robust parts.
As an Electrical Engineer I have access to and use PC board creating software and can easily make a more robust unit.
Len, my specialty is rf circuits and systems, and integrated circuits, so redesigning the regulator looks a little more formidable to me. However, if I can help in any way, I will be glad to. The manuals show some schematics which I can scan and send to you.
I see two large problems:
1) How do I unpot the unit to see what is really there and maybe identify a single "weak link" so we can proceed with minimal risk redesign?
2) How do I test new designs? I have envisioned a system which has an alternator somehow geared up to an electric motor so I can run bench tests off the bike where it is easy to instrument.
Your thoughts on these would be appreciated!! :?
Len, Lawrence,
Maybe you two can answer a question I have. Did Honda do anything other than simply hand us a circuit which impresses loosely regulated voltage across the battery terminals? I spent just long enough with an emergency lighting manufacturer to be dangerous, but I do recall that lead-acid batteries are touchy about how they are charged and will quickly degrade when overcharged even with trickle currents. They also really hate being partially charged, so not sure that running with all your accessories going will help the battery. If Honda is just dropping voltage across some diodes and a resistor/pass transistor, that is a recipe for early battery failure.
I had a long blurb ready about how we designed chargers for lead-acid batteries at an emergency lighting company (the first thing I noticed about the batteries was that they were the same size as typical motorcycle batteries), but if you have already designed lead-acid battery chargers, you already know what you're getting into.
For what it is worth, I designed a lighting-management circuit to automatically handle my bike's auxiliary lights because I didn't want to discharge the battery at a stoplight. I haven't yet physically built the circuit yet (time for a Digi-key order!), but the PSPICE model works quite well. If it works as well in practice as it does on the computer, I'll be happy to pass it along to you so that hopefully it can relieve the rectifier/regulator redesign of having to supply a full load for all accessories at idle.
Gee, guys, I wish I was at home with access to the manuals, but I will have to do this from memory. What I recall is that there is a six phase rectifier circuit going to the battery terminal. In parallel with each leg is an SCR that shunts to ground, controlled by a mysterious box called, I think "regulator" -- which I presume to be an IC. My perception of how it works is that as the output voltage goes up the SCR's fire earlier in each cycle, shunting current to ground. This will increase the dissipation slightly, by the current X the forward voltage of the conducting SCR for the portion of the cycle that it is on. I don't know how the "regulator" controller decides when to fire the SCR's, or even if the schematic in the manual is representative of what is actually in the box. :? It wouldn't have to be, since their standard repair is to replace it. :x
Since this regulator was probably designed about 20 years ago, I am confident that better components exist to do this job. I am thinking of the chips from Benchmarq (now part of TI) that provide battery management, for example.
That's more involved than I thought it was, but it sounds very much like the approach which a friend of mine said Kawasaki used on his '77 Kz650, only with actual relays in place of SCRs on the Kawasaki (don't ask me how it has lasted this long with real moving parts). Knowing the Japanese, it is probably a generic approach used across the Japanese motorycle industry. It sounds like it was something developed by somebody with more background in motor control than in battery charging.
QuoteWhat I recall is that there is a six phase rectifier circuit going to the battery terminal. In
parallel with each leg is an SCR that shunts to ground, controlled by a mysterious box called, I think
"regulator" -- which I presume to be an IC
Sorry for the long delay in responding, I have been very busy. Anyway the above is very correct.
The hardend version of the regulator circuit I'm thinking of doing is based on voltage regulation
systems we, the company I work for and I, are designing for one of our customers.
http://www.airtractor.com/at-802f
We are developing the second generation control system for the dump doors on this plane. My boss was
the head engineer that designed the first gen unit which is now becoming very "dated"
Anyway I have been doing a lot of research into voltage regulators for use and used in this project.
One particular part is very promising for both applications. Its what is called a buck regulator, it
takes up to 45 Volts of DC and regulates it to 12VDC +/- 1% a adjustable version can be "tuned" to run
at any voltage between 3VDC and 30VDC. We would use this part and set it for around 13.2 to 13.8
Volts. The part I'm using for bench testing is rated up to 3 amps. but the nice thing is that several
of these can be paralleled up to our target amprage.
There are also other components that can be used in the same way.
The six phase rectifier circuit won't really need any changes other than higher capacity units.
I also want to include another separate regulator that can run 12V aux items.
This regulator would get its power directly from the phase rectifiers and would provide power only when the engine is running. this would allow devises like extra lights or similar to be powered without a drain on the battery or the motorcycles existing system. No switch would be needed, however i will put a control line to allow a low current , small switch to enable or disable this regulator effectively allowing it to turn on and off the regulator output. or a jumper can just be installed to run anytime the engine is running.
This extra regulator can easily be built as a stand alone unit that can be implemented right now. it would just tap into the 3 wires coming from the "alternator" to pick up the supply power. The 3 amp part should be good enough for this.
Let me know what you think. Ideas, questions, etcetera.
PS the test part im using is the following
http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/AP1501.pdf
BTW the entire circuit minus the phase rectifiers is 1/2 the size of a postage stamp. :cool:
What will be the effect on the stator?
QuoteWhat will be the effect on the stator?
Since these parts are DC to DC converters and are 90% efficient or better, less voltage will be shunted to ground or lost as heat.
The end result should be less draw on the stator at an equal output with the current "regulator" which i would guess is only about 80% efficient at best.
Of course there are no free lunches, so there is of course a maximum limit that the stator can deliver without becoming cooked :-)
I would try to limit the system to about 80-85% load.
I will need to do some tests to find out how many watts the stator can deliver at around 4K rpm.
This is a fairly straight forward test just to look for when the output current begins to sag at a giving load.
Since the "altenator" is a permenent magnet design and not a feedback type like most, I would guess that the output will not be very linear.
As the rpms go up above a certain point the field frequency (Hz) will become higher than the windings are "tuned" too, less voltage will be induced into them.
Well the stator throws A/C in the mix will this change anything being D/C to D/c converter
The six phase rectifier circuit converts the AC into DC prior to going into the "buck" DC to DC converter
This sounds very high tech, also sounds very high priced, what kind of money will be involved if this works out?
Quote from: Len Averyt on July 19, 2008, 12:19:01 AM
Let me know what you think. Ideas, questions, etcetera.
PS the test part im using is the following
http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/AP1501.pdf
BTW the entire circuit minus the phase rectifiers is 1/2 the size of a postage stamp. :cool:
Since I have a wee bit of experience in designing buck converters (and boost converters) and both Ni-Cad and lead-acid battery chargers, I'll toss in my $0.02 worth:
Lead-acid batteries have their own peculiar charging requirements that impose the necessity of throttling the charge current up, down, off, and on as needed. A typical charging profile consists of trickle-charging the battery up to 11.9 V or so, bulk charging (at a current equal to 0.4 X rated ampacity or less) to 13.8 V and trickle charging up to a maximum of 14.5-14.7 V to reach full charge. While the actual voltages recommended will differ slightly from one battery manufacturer to another, in this application with the widely varying input voltage and ambient temperatures, a variable charge rate is needed.
A design using a buckconverter is a great idea, but there are better choices for the controller than the AP1501. A purpose-designed battery charging IC from TI such as the BQ2031 or UC3909 contains a built-in algorithm for managing the charging currents and -- critically important for long battery life -- built-in temperature compensation for the internal voltage references.
To some degree, the physical sizes of the necessary inductors and capacitors can be minimized by running the switcher at the highest frequency permissible, but bear in mind that efficiency generally goes down with increasing frequency because shorter switching periods make the turn-on and turn-off times of the transistors and diodes more significant. Also, the maximum DC current through the inductor is going to drive the minimum core size you can use before the inductor saturates.
You might ask why I'm not working on a design for it right now, and the short answer is that I am going to be living with dc-dc converter problems at work for the next several weeks, thanks to one of my underachieving colleagues.
Some literature you might find useful:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slua098/slua098.pdf (http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slua098/slua098.pdf) Application note for the UC3909
http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1042,C1031,C1061,P1266,D4135 (http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1042,C1031,C1061,P1266,D4135) Application note from Linear Technology that gives a nice, readable and comprehensible introduction to buck converters
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_ChargingMethods.pdf (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_ChargingMethods.pdf) Some basics on battery charging from Panasonic
QuoteThis sounds very high tech, also sounds very high priced, what kind of money will be involved if this works out?
The total parts cost for my regulator design is less than $20. Once I finalize a schematic and a PC board layout then having the PC boards made could be the higher cost item. I still think that the entire unit will be under $40.
QuoteA purpose-designed battery charging IC from TI such as the BQ2031 or UC3909 contains a built-in algorithm for managing the charging currents and -- critically important for long battery life -- built-in temperature compensation for the internal voltage references.
I agree that a manager would be great. Would have to see what the design requirments are.
I'll be releasing a schematic of my prototype unit soon and I'll post a link here
http://www.techknowman.com/Moto/Regulator model.pdf (http://www.techknowman.com/Moto/Regulator%20model.pdf)
Len, I forgot to mention it earlier, but National Semiconductor has some good on-line design tools under their WebBench section. They require you to register to use them, but they will recommend a design based on your circuit requirements. I used the PLL design tool to get me out of the ditch when I needed two designs for tuners on very short notice, and the final circuits worked exactly as predicted.
Also, somewhere around here I have a packaged, Excel-based design program for various switcher topologies courtesy of On Semiconductor. IT handles all component value calculations, including the magnetics design. They were handing them out at a seminar, so I don't think it's copy-protected. If you want a copy let me know.
Allen, he mentioned beefing up the rectifier circuit, so I imagine it will be DC by the time it gets to the converter. I also like the idea of the accessory circuit that is separate from the battery.
Curtis
I like the idea of a battery management chip in the design, especially if it can provide overload protection and short-circuit protection. Don't know if it would need thermal overload protection too, but that might not be such a bad idea, given the environment this circuit lives in.
Len, mabe I am missing something, but my understanding is that the current system has a capacity of 430 watts. At 13.5 volts, this requires nearly 14 amps. If you get there by paralleling 3 amp converter chips, it will take five of 'em. Isn't there another choice that does it "all at once"?
I don't know how much filtering is required at the output. Apparently the ignition system is electronic, and may be susceptible to high frequency "hash" on the battery line.
Has anyone given any thought to a test bench setup? It would be nice if we could test designs off the bike, somehow, to work out any difficulties...
Mike, I appreciate the links. Maybe I can learn something here...
Uhhhhhhhhhh 40 dollars count me in for one heck I will be the tester LOL
Quote from: lragan on July 20, 2008, 04:47:06 PM
I like the idea of a battery management chip in the design, especially if it can provide overload protection and short-circuit protection. Don't know if it would need thermal overload protection too, but that might not be such a bad idea, given the environment this circuit lives in.
Len, mabe I am missing something, but my understanding is that the current system has a capacity of 430 watts. At 13.5 volts, this requires nearly 14 amps. If you get there by paralleling 3 amp converter chips, it will take five of 'em. Isn't there another choice that does it "all at once"?
I don't know how much filtering is required at the output. Apparently the ignition system is electronic, and may be susceptible to high frequency "hash" on the battery line.
Has anyone given any thought to a test bench setup? It would be nice if we could test designs off the bike, somehow, to work out any difficulties...
Mike, I appreciate the links. Maybe I can learn something here...
Lawrence, you are correct that the circuit would be more manageable by designing for heavier currents rather than paralleling controller chips in a dc-dc converter. Unless you used diode ORing to tie the outputs together after their tap-off points for their feedback loops, you'd likely wind up with a battle of the control loops as each one tried to react independently to control the output voltage. Also the voltage drop across the ORing diodes cuts into your charging headroom and dissipates yet more heat in the circuit. There are two ways around that. The first is to let the output of the controller IC drive the input to a beefy switch transistor (MOSFETs tend to be your best choices). The other (which I have not yet designed) is a tapped-inductor buck converter, which the Linear Technology engineer addresses in App Note 44, to reduced the amount of current the switch has to carry and thereby also improve the efficiency since you are dissipating less heat in the switch. In fact, those two features could be combined. {CORRECTION: To take advantage of the tapped inductor approach, we'd have to have a lot more voltage headroom, otherwise we'd wind up with the same ~ 1:1 ratio between input current and output current we're saddled with now.)
There are also multi-phase buck converters, which could allow a savvy engineer to cut out the rectifier diodes altogether. Instead, in a three-phase application like this, you do have three controllers, each one operating off a given phase of the alternator. The output of each feeds the same inductor. I have no experience with these, so it would be helpful to consult a real expert on power conversion for the pros and cons of this approach.
I agree with your concern about the high-frequency hash. You'd need some good filtering to keep RF hash from getting into other things on the bike. I also agree that you'd want to do a LOT of testing on the bench before hooking this set-up to your Magna's electrical system. My own "home" lab set-up is at my parents' house. I wonder if my folks would become suspicious if I suddenly started visiting more often? :lol:
BTW, as Terry pointed out to me some time back in another thread, the manual indicates the system is rated for 374 W at 5000 rpm. I think you'd need to design for 30 Ato make sure you had headroom.
Of course, there is no single way of approaching this. If you've got an idea, by all means take a crack at it. It's worthwhile trying different approaches, learning from the shortcomings, and applying the lessons learned. And I can speak firsthand that having any experience at all with dc-dc converters is a big plus on the engineering resume.
Incidentally, this subject has also come up recently at work, with a buddy's ZZR1200 having killed its battery last Friday. It was so far gone that we couldn't even push-start the bike.
I was also told by the owner of a Goldwing that the members of his forum have had bad results with the aftermarket R/Rs. When his '87 'Wing's R/R went bad on him, he wound up just buying a new OEM because the cheaper alternatives have the reputation of dying within a weekend of riding. Wonder if there's a market for a bullet-proof regulators?
Most of the talk about the regulators has been about over charging, causing the battery to boil over, what about the ones like mine that just stop charging? I just figured ten years and 35,000 miles it was just time for a few things to start wearing out and breaking. There were no physical sign of damage to the regulator it just quit. I would think that if heat was the culprit the symptons would have been the same as the others (over charging). All this high tech talk just got me wondering what caused mine to just quit.
On my friends VFR it blew the 30 amp fuse we replace the fuse then it went wild hot but did not blow the fuse again. He did not run it for but a few minutes he could smell something was burning up. No we did not put a no blow fuse in it. :smile:
I think I asked this a long time ago when this first thread started, but i will ask again... Is the regulator/rectifier "issues" happening to all magna's or just a certain year model? Charles, 10 years and 35000 miles on one regulator is good i would think, but in "vehicle"/cage years not so good.. My bike is a 2001 model, anyone have a R/R issue with a newer model bike? Have they changed the design any?? Just some questions that i keep thinking as i read these post.. The last thing anyone wants to happen is failure which unfortunately happened to felicia and some others.. I don't want to fix something that isn't broke, however, riding my bike wondering if the R/R is going to "give up" someday does'nt set well on my stomach... I would also be up for one of these new designs I suppose... when needed.... :cool:
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on July 21, 2008, 01:40:05 AM
Most of the talk about the regulators has been about over charging, causing the battery to boil over, what about the ones like mine that just stop charging? I just figured ten years and 35,000 miles it was just time for a few things to start wearing out and breaking. There were no physical sign of damage to the regulator it just quit. I would think that if heat was the culprit the symptons would have been the same as the others (over charging). All this high tech talk just got me wondering what caused mine to just quit.
Eventually, heat will kill any electronic component. It is simply a matter of when. I think Lawrence is probably better qualified to discuss this particular aspect, but as a rule of thumb every 10°C rise in temperature cuts a given component's life span in half. Also, just as with human lifespans, a tiny percentage somehow manage to outlive the rest. Then it becomes a matter of removing and replacing with like item.
Now that I an sitting in the corner in the fetal position mumbling to my self incoherently!!!! :lol: :shock:
You smart folk just let me know when you get it all figured out and how much it will cost me to install one on my Project 96??!!!!
Amen!!! Greg. Wow! (I'll stick to studying the sex life of Bohemian bottle caps)
Brad Badgett
OK Region
Quote from: Greg Cothern on July 21, 2008, 06:03:35 PM
Now that I an sitting in the corner in the fetal position mumbling to my self incoherently!!!! :lol: :shock:
You smart folk just let me know when you get it all figured out and how much it will cost me to install one on my Project 96??!!!!
You must be talkin' about them other fellers. I still remember the expressions of disbelief on my college professors faces when they belatedly realized I had finally amassed enough credit hours to slide out the door. :shock: They seemed to think I got out on a technicality.
We can change the subject back to mechanical matters such as carburetor jetting and once again I will have to content myself with sitting in silent awe :? at people who know
useful stuff.
By the way, I didn't know Bohemian bottle caps reproduced sexually. I thought they took care of that by mitosis...
Quote from: Guy Gadois on July 20, 2008, 11:18:57 PM
.... Wonder if there's a market for a bullet-proof regulators?
Well, Mike, I did a little web research:
http://www.oldbikebarn.com/Motorcycle_Parts/Rectifier-Regulator/Universal-Rectifier-Regulator
Interesting looking unit here:
http://www.shindengen.com/resources/Product/FH012%20Data.pdf
http://www.morsbikesonline.com/category/Powerbox
China is already supplying these modules:
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/razhengxu/product-detailaMzQufPoOUWZ/China-Regulator-Rectifier-ZX-W-S-003-.html
Honda specific units:
http://www.cyclewareables.com/pages/rectifiers_regulators_street_tour/rectifregulate.htm
This web site has a confirmation of the possibility of mutual interference between the charging and ignition systems:
http://www.britcycle.com/Products/332PowerUnits.htm
In particular, they post the following warning for the "Sparx" brand:
Please Note: When using SPARX regulator rectifiers you must use resisted spark plugs as circuitry is sensitive. Using unresisted plugs can cause over charging.
And if you are an IEEE member, you can dig further at:
http://www.trans-ie.uni-wuppertal.de/abs/ies46_3.html
My conclusion is that this is a rather crowded marketplace. No doubt experienced power designers like you could come up with a better module, but getting noticed in all this hubhub would take some $$$ in promotion. It doesn't look like a commercial opportunity to me, but then this is not my field...
If there were some way to sort through all the various offerings and establish if one is particularly reliable, that might the best we could do for our fellow MagnaDudes. :cool:
Nice work, Lawrence! You are doubtlessly right. Probably why I'm not in marketing. :-)
VF750C V45 94-01 Thanks Lawrence for the info.. Looks like the R/R for 94-01 might have been the same.... Maybe they decided to change the design on 2002-2003 models.... Lance
Good observation, Lance. When I return home, I will attempt to check this out with the local dealer.
Then comes the $160 question (assuming a newer design exists)...
Has the reliability improved?
Sorry for the delay but that Airplane is eating up my time. We have to hit the tarmack by september 30 with an operating version of that fire gate controller, so last minute design fixes and issues before having the PC boards made are eating my time up!
Quickly looking at all the posts since my last post. which are too numerous for me to quote all, I'm just going to give an update on some tests I ran 2 days ago on the multi regulator design.
I built up 3, 5 amp output units and as Guy suggested, OR'd the outputs together.
I set each output at 13.5V after the "or" diode.
I began applying a dummy load until the current draw was 14.5Amps.
The AP1501 (regulators) barely got hot at all.
The "Or" diodes which by the way are 40amp "TO220 package" low drop diodes ".4V drop" didn't even get warm.
I was pumping 35VDC into the regulators and maintained 13.3V out for 5 hours and no extra heat.
I then began failing out "Shutting down" one regulator at a time of course the total current draw exceeded the parts output. Since the parts are overcurrent protected they automatically throttled back to .5Amp output I forgot the volts out but it was very low. Anyway the parts self protected as they were supposed to.
So i backed up my dummy load to 9.5 Amps with 3 connected and then failed / shutdown one. the current remained the same and voltage only slightly drooped. So the units parallel or share very well with each other.
Later i connected an ammeter to each regulator and proved the parts were current sharing within .01 amps and .1 volts.
I then purposely shorted the output of the 3 ored units directly to ground and left it that way for over 5 hours. the parts stayed cool and as soon as i removed the short the current returned back to 14.5 amps @ 13.3 V.
The reason for the tests wasn't for our application but for the aircraft firegate control. In one of the three backup modes, we are manually controlling the hydraulic valves. This mode basically connects the solenoids directly to the regulators to allow the gate to open and dump the load. we have to "know" that the power is there for this mode and so we are using 3 of these regulators to triple redundant the 2amps needed to run the valves.
Its just good for us that this can also be used for our bikes.
The system I'm going to design is going to use 6 of these regulators.
5 of them will be for redundant output to the bikes normal functions
the 6th one will provide 4.5-5 amps at 12.5V for bike auxiliary items.
I'll have an LED on each output, prior to the OR diodes to visually see if any of the regulators are off/dead.
The entire package will be 1.5" X 1.5" X 2.5" it will be potted in a plastic or aluminum "box" with no "heatsink"
BTW the unit could be way smaller and the potting material is a chemical removable just in case service is needed.
Configuring the product is just figuring out the connections to and from each of the 2 harnesses.
I should have a few working "prototype" boards for testing by end of august. any takers on real world tests?
UPDATE my projected cost with be at most 2/3 the $140 cost of the oldbikebarn universal regulator. My cost is 1/3 that. I'm not in it to make a lot of money so i'd guess about $80 give or take tops. plus it should be damn near indestructable
Can you say patent pending.. hehehe :cool:
PUT ME ON THE LIST PLEASE !!!!Awesome sold here!!! :cool: :cool:
there is a pinout of the harness that goes to the regulator, in the manual page 15-2 if you didn't have that already. if you need it posted, let me know.
SomethinVFR 750 Regulator / Rectifier Cooling
As reported to the Honda VF/VFR Netlist http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr-list/
As reports of dead rectifier/regulator units for VFR 750s were on the increase, and I have a '97 VFR 750, I decided to have a good look at my unit and do some testing.
I am an electronics engineer by trade, although for the past 10 years I have been more involved in designing computer networks and moved away from component/circuit design. I live in Canberra, Australia.
Anecdotal evidence suggested that the rectifier/regulator was running very hot, and the frame around the unit was also very hot although it was unsure if it was the frame that was heating up the rectifier/regulator or vice versa.
Preliminary
First I took the bike for an hour's ride through some twisty country roads and light traffic suburbia, then I measured some temperatures with a digital thermometer.
All temperatures are Degrees Celsius. For the members of the list using Degrees F, to convert from C to F,
F = 1.8 x C + 32
e.g. 69.8C = 157.64F. Ouch!!!
Results
Ambient temp. : 26.5 C
Rectifier temp. : 69.8 C (can you believe that, no wonder it burns the F@#$ out of your finger!)
Frame temp (top rail of sub frame above rectifier) : 58.3 C (the temperature of the frame rails drops rapidly the further away from the rectifier/regulator that measurements are taken so I believe it is the rectifier/regulator that is shedding heat into the frame).
Right side rear cowling temp. : 40.2 (outside wall)
Compare
Observations
Electronic components are usually damaged by three things: excessive heat, vibration and voltage spikes.
The heat of the rectifier/regulator unit is quite high, high enough to reduce the life of the unit. If this temp is lowered it should extend the life of the unit (vibration / voltage spikes aside) IMHO.
The rectifier/regulator does not mate flush with the frame (slight air gaps) and is not transferring heat to the frame as efficiently as it could (hence the temp. differential between rectifier/regulator and the frame rail).
There is about 3.5 inches of clearance between the rectifier/regulator and the cowling on the 94+ VFR which should allow room for additional heat sinks to be fitted.
1986-89 VFRs have a substantial heat sink included as standard, 1990 models onwards do not. (This information was derived from the Haynes workshop manual).
Rectification Attempt 1
Applied heat transfer compound between rectifier/regulator and frame to remove air gaps and improve heat transfer.
Results
Ambient temp. : 26.8 C
Rectifier temp. : 64.5 C (better)
Frame temp. (top rail of sub frame above rectifier) : 62.8 C (closer to the rectifier/regulator temp.)
Right side rear cowling temp. : 40.4 (outside wall).
Compare
Rectification Attempt 2
Components
Heat transfer compound
Passive heat sink (no fan). This was a heat sink normally used for power transistors and is 1.75 inches square with "fingers" 2 inches high, made of aluminium.
Procedure
Applied heat transfer compound between rectifier/regulator and frame to remove air gaps and improve heat transfer.
Installed passive heat sink to top of rectifier/regulator with silicon rubber sealant.
Results
Ambient temp. : 27.5 C
Rectifier temp. : 55.6 C (better again)
Frame temp. (top rail of sub frame above rectifier) : 53.9 C
Right side rear cowling temp. : 46.4 (getting hotter).
Compare
Rectification Attempt 3
Components
Heat sink assembly. I decided to borrow one of the lists' suggestions and organised a Pentium PC heat sink and fan assembly (for Pentium 200).
Heat transfer compound.
Silicon rubber sealant.
Procedure
The bottom of the rectifier/regulator has a metal plate, which is used to transfer heat to the frame. I covered this with enough heat transfer compound to fill in the air gaps between the rectifier/regulator and the frame and bolted the unit back onto the frame.
The top of the rectifier/regulator is covered in silicon rubber to protect the components. I fixed the heat sink assembly to this with silicon rubber sealant. The heat sink / fan assembly is large enough to sit on the metal frame of the rectifier/regulator. Apply the silicon rubber sealant to the centre of the heat sink only, so as not to block the cooling fins around the rim of the heat sink. (A dab of epoxy resin can be applied to the corners of the heat sink assembly where it meets the rectifier/regulator for added adhesion).
Power to the heat sink fan was obtained from the brake light connector (in Australia, our headlights are wired to be on when the ignition is turned on. We don't get a choice). Power for the fan can be taken from any number of points that are switched by the ignition, as the fan only draws .08 amps. The earth was taken from the bolt which fastens the rectifier/regulator to the frame.
* The heat sink assembly is only 1 inch high and allows ample clearance to the rear cowling.
Results
Another 1 hour ride (yeah!!!) on the same roads as before, although the day had heated up from earlier.
Ambient temp. : 29.3 C
Rectifier temp. : 44.63C (yes!)
Frame temp. : 42.5 C
Right side rear cowling temp. : 29.5 (seems safe).
Compare
After all this I went out for another ride for about 2 hours with friends. When I got back I measured everything again with almost identical results.
Tentative Conclusion
The temp of the rectifier/regulator is about 28 degrees cooler with the heat transfer compound between the rectifier/regulator and the frame, and the heat sink and fan installed. That's got to be a good thing.
The rear cowling is actually a little cooler now.
This doesn't actually prove a thing, but I am personally more confident that the rectifier/regulator will last longer.
I can't believe that the unit gets that hot as standard!
If anyone has questions / reservations or concerns please raise them. There are plenty of inventive minds on the list, and we should be able to work them out. This is something I found on another website... seemed interesting enough..
Quote from: Len Averyt on July 26, 2008, 11:55:04 AM
The system I'm going to design is going to use 6 of these regulators.
5 of them will be for redundant output to the bikes normal functions
the 6th one will provide 4.5-5 amps at 12.5V for bike auxiliary items.
I'll have an LED on each output, prior to the OR diodes to visually see if any of the regulators are off/dead.
The entire package will be 1.5" X 1.5" X 2.5" it will be potted in a plastic or aluminum "box" with no "heatsink"
BTW the unit could be way smaller and the potting material is a chemical removable just in case service is needed.
Configuring the product is just figuring out the connections to and from each of the 2 harnesses.
I should have a few working "prototype" boards for testing by end of august. any takers on real world tests?
UPDATE my projected cost with be at most 2/3 the $140 cost of the oldbikebarn universal regulator. My cost is 1/3 that. I'm not in it to make a lot of money so i'd guess about $80 give or take tops. plus it should be damn near indestructable
Good work, Len! Color me interested. :cool:
I would probably not use the aux output, as I am too lazy to do the wiring... :(
Did you have a chance to slap a 'scope on the output under the various load conditions? It would be nice to understand the ripple frequency and amplitude from the switching regulators.
Have you thought about updating the rectifiers with your low forward drop diodes? With three phase full wave rectifiers, the ripple should be pretty low, and I presume your switching units run fast enough to handle the ripple. The 40 amp diodes should be sufficient, as your total current will be about 30 amps.
It occurs to me that you need to caution everyone that the alternator is rated somewhat under 400 watts. If you used your system to full capacity, you could pull 405 watts at 13.5 volts.
I am not a whiz on battery charging, so will defer to Mike on the charging profile (see post above). Can this design accomplish this charging technique? I have no idea what the OEM R/R part does in this regard, but I doubt it follows Mike's recommended profile. How important is this characteristic to battery life and capacity? :???:
Help Me! Help Me! Please!
I started having problems about a month ago. First the boil over so I got a new battery then it all went out my R/R burnt up literally the back of it started smoking and blew my 30amp fuse. I read one of you had the same BB mounting bracket broke as I did no Idea how maybe it's related. I fixed my box using a stuff called plastic weld. I glued the pieces together then I cut some thin pieces of plastic that fit on either side and glued them there with the same epoxy, it's held well.Also if you think about it the hot electrolite on the back of the unit can't help I'm sure it probably eats at the rubber back filler they used on mine. Someone mentioned the unit has aluminum back mine had this stuff, looked like someone poured rubber goop on it and it hardened. Anyway i got a new one through Dennis kirk and its been three weeks and i got boilover problems again. I wasn't five miles away from home and it quit on me again. Next day I discovered my battery had boiled over again and the fuse is blown. Now what? These things aren't cheap. I guess I should expect my R/R to go out again. I push a VF750C 1995.LOL. A MECHANIC friend of mine thinks I should check for a short because the alt. is being called for the extra power. But I'm gathering the alt. doesn't work that way. I need my bike as I use it for work but it would suck if it left me stranded way out there.(I work 30 miles from home.) So what, I should by another R/R from Honda or what? I know I'm gonna device some kinda shunt /cover for the back of it whatever I do, maybe with some kinda wings to help direct air flow to the unit. I wish someone had an Idea of air flow.
Go back to some of the first post, before it got so high tech :-?.. There was some talk of faulty aftermarket R/R's.
I replaced mine with an older model Honda R/R (used), haven't had any more problems so far. Good luck, hope you get it figured out.
Charles/Bidd daddy, The info I got from my last article about the Australian Engineer was pretty simple. All he is basically doing is adding a computer heat sink fan to disperse the heat off the R/R like it would do in a computer. According to his trials, it seemed to work. Just FYI.. I may end up still buying the "Len Special" :lol: though. My bike being a 2001 model, I haven't had any issues to date (wood/knock) however preventing something from not happening isn't a bad thing :D
I just suggested he go back a several post, to see if the R/R he bought was one of the bad ones talked about on here earlier. I want to see how well my older R/R holds up in this 100+ temp. If I repaint ,while the bike is down I will probably move the R/R to the right side next to the side cover, away from the heat. I think you guys putting your heads together to come up with a better regulator is great, I am anxious to see how this all turns out after production and testing, but Bigdaddysnake sounds like he needs a solution now so I was just throwing my redneck fix in the ring. I mean't no disrepect to our resident rocket scientest :-D.. Sometimes I even read their post and pretend to understand :-? :D
Sometimes I even read their post and pretend to understand You took the words right out of my mouth Charles... :lol:
As I posted earlier, I am in the corner in the fetal position mumbling :lol:
Seriously I hope Len and Lawrence and others whom are considerably more intelligent than I, get a improved unit up and going! I am certainly inline for one.
So today I called the Honda dealer in New Braunfels, TX, regarding a change in the part number or design of the regulator on or about year 2000. Their parts man said he couldn't tell if the part number has changed, that all the 3rd gen Magnas called out the same part number regardless of model year, and that the R/R was used on "10 or 12" Honda bikes, so "it couldn't be the problem".
So much for trying to get info from this source. A couple of things occur:
1) None of the other Honda motorcycles mount the part on plastic in the heat vortex from the engine.
2) If they changed the design because of reliability issues back in 2000 or so, they will not admit to having done so, as they do not want to be forced to recall all the old designs. So even if the design changed, the part number might not if the new one was backward compatible.
3) Even if they changed the design, since they don't seem to have changed the part number, there is no way to tell if you are getting a better unit when you buy a new one.
What a mess! :mad:
Thanks Lawrence for the follow-up..
Ya I caught that, about the aftermarkets not being as good as the OEM. Unfortunately a little late last time I had checked someone was suggesting the purchase of the cheaper aftermarket brands. My dilemma is even if I move it to a cooler area (since this one hasn't burnt out yet) or install a PC fan, I still have the boilover problem. That's why the question "should I breakdown and buy a $200. one from Honda and would that alleviate all my problems. I went to some of the sites the "techno gurus" (no disrespect) mentioned and they have some R/R 's on sale there which mention no overcharging and no overheating issues but, I believe you have to buy in quantity. Maybe not all of them, what I'd like is a darned warranty. However, on most electricals you don't get one. I got this bike from my cousin who said he never had problems with it, thats cause it saved them all for me. :(
MOOT MOOT MOOT MOOT
I had a dealer where you could purchase a R/R for 142.00 plus I guess 10 bucks to ship if you are in dire need on one.
You are right, you are going to have to replace the regulator if your still boiling over. You can purchase a used honda regulator just about anywhere for $20.00 to $40.00 (mine was free 8)), you'll have to change the plug and add an outside ground (just to be on the safe side). At least this way you can make sure that your problem with boil over is for sure the regulator without being out $150.00 bucks again.
There is no proof at all, only anecdotal evidence, that Honda redesigned the R/R around year 2000. I have never heard of a later model Magna with a R/R failure of either type -- just stopping charging, or causing boilover.
Has anyone encountered such a case? :???:
If not, it is a reasonable inference that if you can purchase one from a popular dealer who has flushed the bad units out of stock, you will solve the problem. If the dealer doesn't have any in stock, but has to order from his authorized Honda supplier, then you are at least assured of getting one of the assumed later design.
I am considering replacing mine with a new one, even though it is still functioning normally. If you look at the measurements I made, posted above, it gets really hot, so it is only a matter of when, not if, it dies. :sad:
It would be interesting to take some temperature data from a 2001 or later Magna. If anyone near me has one and would allow me to instrument it, the measurement is simple, non-invasive, and, I believe, pretty accurate. If, as I suspect, the operating case temperatures are substantially lower than mine, I would accept that data as proof of a redesign. :cool:
What if the redesign (assuming there is one) is just designed to handle more heat and not necessarily run cooler?
Lawrence, I wished we could have tested mine at MOOTmag6. I would have been willing to let you "dissect" it.
Guy Wheatley still has his old bad one, and was wondering if anyone still wanted it for research ?
A few threads late, but..
I don't think a pc fan will hold up to the environment that puts it in. Namely moiture.
Terry, is that a Honda dealer? Would it be the same as an OEM? One of the maint. Eng. where I work suggested that maybe the regulator is functioning poorly cause it's overheating. Which goes with what someone else was saying about other bikes not having the same problems due to the mounting location. Anyone agree? I'd hate to waste another battery on a hunch not to mention the bear it is to get to the R/R. Charles, there are no motorcycle graveyards here in Alice unless I find one junked behind someones house I'm flying solo. We are lucky to have an off brand dealer here. I think i'm going to move the R/R first then try to refill my batt. C if that works if not buy a new one and just ride close to hm for a while till I either build up the confedence to drive it to work or till the R/R burns out. It's just that it costs me $25. a day to drive my truck and $7. a day to ride my bike. Do the math, even if I do buy another it'll pay for itself in the long run but damm not one a month. Ya DG I agree with the moisture thing and they'r not made to withstand that kind of heat most are made of plastic and would probably melt.
Yes that is a Honda dealer and OEM. I tried to access their website, not working at the moment. I've sent a few others their to purchase the regulator.
Quote from: L J BAD MAG on July 31, 2008, 11:57:41 AM
Lawrence, I wished we could have tested mine at MOOTmag6. I would have been willing to let you "dissect" it.
Lance, it took a while to sort through what was going on. I did not have test gear with me at MOOTMAG, in fact did not buy the temperature measuring equipment until I returned home.
And no dissection is necessary -- I don't even loosen any nuts or bolts. The probe clamps to the heat sink fins with a heavy paper clamp and a couple of tie wraps keep the wire going up to the meter (in a tank bag) in place. When I am done, I clip the tie wraps off and you are back to original condition.
:-D
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on July 31, 2008, 11:23:48 AM
What if the redesign (assuming there is one) is just designed to handle more heat and not necessarily run cooler?
The two goals are really something of a set of Siamese twins: since the nature of the materials establish the limits of just how hot the electronics can get internally before they fail -- and most power semiconductors have pretty much the same maximum internal temperatures -- the only way to being able to get them to handle more heat is to make sure they run cooler, either by making them more efficient or by sucking the heat out as fast as you can.
I still think Lawrence's idea of a scoop to duct air up across the regulator is a great idea, but like he said, making it work so the air actually flows the way you want might take some doing. Is there a fluid flow dynamics engineer in the house? :???:
Hey guys n gals good news the manuf. of the R/R does have a one yr. warrenty. I called DK and they said mail it in. Cool beans yeah! I'm a bit relieved. Not looking forward to a long wait to get one back tho. or the wk involved. But hey I wanted a warrenty and I got one, be happy huh! Later, I'll keep ya'll posted.
"I'm a bit relieved"
How do you spell relief ?---w a r r a n t y 8-).
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 31, 2008, 03:02:49 PM
Yes that is a Honda dealer and OEM. I tried to access their website, not working at the moment. I've sent a few others their to purchase the regulator.
They changed their website as I called to see if they were still in business. They told me nothing would change but the price did go up from 140.00 to 170.00. I emailed and they did not respond, enough of that.
I did locate another Honda dealer who had a better deal at 133.00 for the OEM regulator and another dealer at 141.00 plus shipping which I wouldn't think would be more than 10 dollars. If anyone has a need before Len's R/R is complete or prefers a OEM let me know and I will check them again and send you the info.
I've been semi-following this post.. I have a '94 Magna and replaced my Regulator 40K miles ago and it went bad again..(Not too bad). The 1st regulator overcharged the battery, the second stopped charging.
I just ordered a Regulator from RegulatorRectifier.com. They claim a redesigned regulator that is more reliable and has an 8% boost in power output and is about $115. Here is the link to the regulator
http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/1994-2003-honda-vf750c-magna-regulator-rectifier-p-782.html?osCsid=5e072961f5039e81a16c5954662e81fc (http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/1994-2003-honda-vf750c-magna-regulator-rectifier-p-782.html?osCsid=5e072961f5039e81a16c5954662e81fc). It comes with a 6 month Warranty.
I am also relocating my Regulator to just behind the right side cover (Hopefully improved cooling). I will attempt to send a picture when the project is done.
Hootmon Harry
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When you replaced your regulator the first time did you use OEM? What year did you do that in?
When I purchased the '94, the Regulator was bad (Over charging) the bike indicated about 10K miles, but the speedometer cable was broke, so the bike probably had at least another 5K on it. I replaced the regulator with one from Old Bike Barn. That was ~3.5 years ago. The bike now has 50K on the odometer (I obviously fixed the speedo cable) and the regulator just dead (no voltage output).
Okay, Here's my update:
I contacted Wild West Honda who had the R/R for $230.00, I thought that was a little steep and decided to try to find a used one. I finally found a motorcycle salvage yard in Houston (I could only find one) and the guy there said I would have to bring in the old part so he could match it up. Work and family commitments conspired against me for quite a while until I finally had a Saturday off where I could go to the salvage yard.
Once there, I showed the guy the part and he disappeared into the black hole behind the counter and finally reappeared with a similar part. He told me It would need to be rewired to match the wiring on my original part and that the guy working on my bike would know how to do it. So I, sweetly as possible, told the guy I was working on my bike and we had a brief discussion about sexism and mechanics. So I paid the guy $75.00 and left with the part confident in my ability to put my bike back together and laughing that that guy won't assume anything the next time a woman walks into his shop looking for a part for HER motorcycle.
After carefully comparing both R/R's I decided they were both wired the same, just with different colored wires. Checked all my fuses, none were bad, but I replaced the main fuse because I didn't like the reading I got from it. Charged my battery ( I replaced the one that was overheated). Well it's been hot and more family commitments ... I finally made the time and put everything back together. "Serenity" started up just fine and we went for a ride around the block.
I start riding to and from work on her tomorrow. So hopefully my problem is solved for now. I do plan to go ahead and purchase a new one to have on hand if this should happen again – since I put a used one back on. Been watching the thread but didn't have anything to add.
Felicia
After the R/R problems at mootmag 6, I am thinking about putting a voltage gauge on my Y2K magna
just to keep an eye on things. Kuryakyn has one that will mount on the bars, but it is an LED unit.
Dakota Digital also has one that mounts on the bars, but it is 160$ out of my price range.
Ronmag
QuoteI am thinking about putting a voltage gauge on my Y2K magna
just to keep an eye on things.
I'm using a single LED battery monitor from Electrical Connection: http://www.electricalconnection.com/meters_indicators/04101.htm
The electronics would need to be tucked away inside the headlight nacelle or a dedicated enclosure fabricated since most Magnas don't have a fairing. They used to have a surface mount model with it's own enclosure but I don't see it now. I leave mine "hot" all of the time so I can monitor the battery even when the bike is tucked away in the garage. If I notice any color but green, I'll either ride or hook up the battery tender.
After my Valk alternator failed in Colorado, I became convinced that battery and charge condition is something a rider needs to be continually apprised of.
Curtis
In the Magnas case they need to add a color for over 15 volts.. It's a shame we don't have some electronic techs on here :D to figure out how to add one?
I sent EC an e-mail asking if they ever thought of adding an over-voltage indicator... Hey, it can't hurt to ask!!!
If you're willing to make your own mount for it, how about one of these http://www.mouser.com/catalog/635/2022.pdf (http://www.mouser.com/catalog/635/2022.pdf)? Jewell Instruments's analog 0-30Vdc meter (Mouser P/N 541-OMS-DVV-030) for $22.42, less shipping. If it's the one I used at a previous job, all you have to do is to mount it and run wires to it.
I wonder how weather resistant such units would be..?
In short, not at all weather-resistant unless you get a little creative in mounting and enlcosing it. I'm just tossing out a possible alternative to the ridiculously over-priced things from Kuryakyn et al. To be fair, a good deal of what you're paying for with the units marketed to motorcyclists is the enclosure, which one would like to think was weather-resistant, but not sure I'd bet on it.
I personally find it a little easier to read an analog meter quickly these days than even the "big print" digital displays. Can't read characters quickly without reading glasses, which just don't work for me on a motorcycle, and the LED bar graphs lack the resolution to be useful, in my opinion.
So what are we talking here? Hard wiring the leads of a volt meter to the battery , velcroing a volt meter to handlebars and plugging it in when your riding and removing it if it's raining? Does anyone make an inexpensive volt meter that would hold up to vibration and constant input?
Has anyone installed the Kuryakyn LED Battery Guage?
http://www.kuryakyn.com/products.asp?bn=metric&ci=2695
I was considering one since my battery tends to go down if in traffic with the cooling fan on.
I think I will hard wire a set of voltage wires to the battery, run them up the handle bars, then I can keep a small cheap (Harbor Freight :D) meter in my bag so I can periodiclly check my voltage output.. Any reason that wouldn't work? At least until someone finds a nice chrome one for under $15.00 8)..
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on August 14, 2008, 02:11:53 PM
I think I will hard wire a set of voltage wires to the battery, run them up the handle bars, then I can keep a small cheap (Harbor Freight :D) meter in my bag so I can periodiclly check my voltage output.. Any reason that wouldn't work? At least until someone finds a nice chrome one for under $15.00 8)..
Just be sure to fuse the hot lead even though it won't have a load. You never know when something will find a way to ground itsself.
Curtis
Quote from: Curtis_Valk on August 14, 2008, 06:11:34 PM
Just be sure to fuse the hot lead even though it won't have a load. You never know when something will find a way to ground itsself.
Curtis
In which case the term "hot lead" will mean precisely what it says!! :cool:
I usually put an inline fuse about an inch or two from the battery terminal, and also cover that small of wire with some kind of sheath..
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on August 14, 2008, 02:11:53 PM
I think I will hard wire a set of voltage wires to the battery, run them up the handle bars, then I can keep a small cheap (Harbor Freight :D) meter in my bag so I can periodiclly check my voltage output.. Any reason that wouldn't work? At least until someone finds a nice chrome one for under $15.00 8)..
That's similar to what I was going to recommend next. If you don't mind shoehorning something in and maybe aesthetically-challenged solutions, there are plenty of less expensive alternative to the hig-dollar stuff.
Well, I got my new Regulator installed behind the right side cover... I will post some pictures tomorrow... The regulator at 3K RPM puts out 15VDC (Not more than, but right at 15VDC)... Is that acceptable or too high? The battery is near full charge? Looking for some smart guidance here.. Not Smart @ss guidance... Thanx
From what I understand the regulator does not turn off (like cars and trucks) so it will always produce a charge of 14 or 15 volts if the battery needs it or not.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: Magnum Magna on August 14, 2008, 11:29:19 PM
From what I understand the regulator does not turn off (like cars and trucks) so it will always produce a charge of 14 or 15 volts if the battery needs it or not.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Terry, alternator/rectifier/regulator systems are designed to provide the current a battery needs -- not "whether it needs it or not" -- the source of overcharging and boilover. When the battery is fully charged the voltage will be in the range 14.5-15+ volts, depending on the battery, its age, the temperature, and other factors. There is no fixed voltage that is "fully charged". Supplying a very small current when the battery voltage gets this high will just replace the current lost to leakage, which is what most modern "plug it in the wall" chargers do.
For details on proper battery charging, please see Mike Coward's post earlier in this thread, in particular, http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_VRLA_ChargingMethods.pdf
:cool:
Sorry for the duplicate posts, but there does seem to be two similar threads and I was concerned with my regulator output level and wanted visibility to the "experts" - (That's you guys..) Thanx for your forgiveness... ;-)
As promissed, here is a couple of pictures of my regulator re-design (at least location wise)
[attachment deleted by admin]
That is where I've talking about moving mine to the next time I have trouble. Lots of bikes have them exposed so it's an already tested location. It looks good to me, thanks for the pics.. I think I'll even go ahead a mount one on the side for a spare.
As I stated in a previous post I purchased the regulator from regulatorrectifire.com
http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/1994-2003-honda-vf750c-magna-regulator-rectifier-p-782.html?osCsid=5e072961f5039e81a16c5954662e81fc (http://www.regulatorrectifier.com/catalog/1994-2003-honda-vf750c-magna-regulator-rectifier-p-782.html?osCsid=5e072961f5039e81a16c5954662e81fc)
Their customer service is not the best (They NEVER answer their phone) but the nice thing was the wire leads from the regulator were twice as long as stock. So I was able to run the wires over to the stock location and did not have to strip the connectors out of the harness and run them back over toward the new location. The regulator is supposed to supply 8% more power than stock and be re-designed for better reliability (at least that is what the website says).
I'm a cheap skate, I buy used, I have heard of just as many new replacement regulators going out as I have used ones. The regulator I have on mine now was free, puts out a steady 14 volts and has not give any trouble. If I put a $30.00 used one on the side for a spare I'm still $150.00 ahead and have a spare to boot. For me being cheap is a way of life :D..
I have a single additional light mounted just under the stabilizer bar (above the front fender) and in the past I have had trouble running it with my headlight as my battery would drain down. I have heard of other Magna riders having similar experience with added lights, but then I see others with Light Bars... I went with this one for the extra 8% output. My last regulator lasted 40K miles... IF I get another 40K out of my '94 that has not had the TB001 performed I will be a very satisfied puppy!
What is the most number of miles you have heard of on a Gen3?
I'm not sure who has the highest on the forum, I do know that Bob's 99 had over 55,000 and still ran like a new one. You'll get a lot higher numbers than that just from this group..
Quote from: hootmon on August 15, 2008, 02:05:04 PM
I have a single additional light mounted just under the stabilizer bar (above the front fender) and in the past I have had trouble running it with my headlight as my battery would drain down. I have heard of other Magna riders having similar experience with added lights, but then I see others with Light Bars... I went with this one for the extra 8% output. My last regulator lasted 40K miles... IF I get another 40K out of my '94 that has not had the TB001 performed I will be a very satisfied puppy!
I have two additional lights. I installed the switch that came with them through the plastic fork cover on the left side -- it is a rocker type switch, and you have to look close to see it. I did have to drill a hole for it, of course. When I am idling for long periods, which is rare since I don't commute on the bike, and try to stay out of traffic :), I will turn the extra lights off, as the alternator can only keep up at 3000+ rpm.
I would like to have more electrical power, but am not sure I would relish the extra weight and cost that would go with it...
I have heard reports of over 90K on 3rd gen bikes without major issue...
On additional lighting, my sons 96 (my original 96 bought new out of the crate) has had 2 Kuryakyn Silver bullet lights for majority of its life (40K miles approx) and has never had a problem with powering them... However they are not used everyday. When I rode the bike I used them at night primarily or when in group riding and I was running tailgunner, as the leader could identify me very easily, but without blinding anyone.
I personally believe the R-R issues would be less if it were mounted in a better airflow area. I dont claim to be an electronics expert by any means whatsoever! So I will leave it up to those whom are MUCH smarter than I.....
Lawrence I haven't seen your lights, but I run two 50 watt riding lights, I believe they are called Platinum Burner series from Wal-Mart ,$17.00 for the pair and they come with all the wiring and a switch. I mounted the switch on the right side cover (top) and ran the hot wire from the Ign switch so I don't accidentally leave them on. I have had no problems with mine. I put them on when I replaced the regulator. They are small bullet shaped chrome, the same ones you see on E-bay for 30 or 40 dollars. I'm well pleased with them.
Charles, I bet yours are better looking than mine, which have a somewhat retro look. Cheaper, too. If you could post a picture, that would be sweet, as I would like to see how and where you mounted them. Had I known they were $17 each, I would have paid attention at MOOTMag 6!! :cool:
Quote from: hootmon on August 15, 2008, 02:05:04 PM
I have a single additional light mounted just under the stabilizer bar (above the front fender) and in the past I have had trouble running it with my headlight as my battery would drain down. I have heard of other Magna riders having similar experience with added lights, but then I see others with Light Bars... I went with this one for the extra 8% output. My last regulator lasted 40K miles... IF I get another 40K out of my '94 that has not had the TB001 performed I will be a very satisfied puppy!
What is the most number of miles you have heard of on a Gen3?
My Magna has run two 55-watt lights on all the time for the life of the bike that I know of, never an issue running the battery low whether in traffic or not. Along with this I run with heated gloves (22 watts) in the winter, again without issue.
You can add up watts, headlight, taillight, signals, modulators, etc to get an idea of what can be put into the electrical system. I think the rule of thumb is keep your watts used at 80 % of output.
That being the case 375 watt output times 80 % = 300 watts available, 75 watts as a buffer.
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on August 15, 2008, 11:10:27 AM
Lots of bikes have them exposed so it's an already tested location.
My coworkers Vulcan is visible from the side. His fins run up and down no front to back.
It must not matter, Brenda's Shadow has the regulator on the side and the fins run horizontal..
"If you could post a picture, that would be sweet, as I would like to see how and where you mounted them. "
>
They were $17.00 a pair not each. Hope these pics are clear, as you can see I haven't cleaned any chrome lately.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2520.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2519.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2524.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2525.jpg)
I use mine mostly at dusk and dawn or when I'm ridng country roads at nite. (really lights up from ditch to ditch)
Just some side notes, (Ramblings)
I also placed a rocker switch in the left plastic cover in front of the tank (wire ran from battery with in-line fuse, then ran the power up to a triple switch mounted on the master cylinder. The switch by the tank is to turn off the power so someone doesn't come along and turn on my light and kill my battery while I'm off shopping, etc.
I wish I could find a water proof rocker switch, I've already had to replace the switch once.
Because of the lack of my charging system being able to keep up with 1 additional light and my brights at the same time, I now think maybe my last regulator has been going for a while and finally failed..
My Bike presently states 49,500, but the Speedo cable was broke when I bought it so it has at least another 5K on in it. The TB-001 was never done, so I get a upper end cams knock at idle (always have and doesn't seem to be any worse.) Also my valves have never been adjusted (Just don't have the $$$ to get it done). The bike still runs great and there is no other all around bike I would prefer to have.
BTW - I bought the bike with ~ 10K on the odometer about 3.5 years ago for $1700 :shock: and since it was a friend of a friend, paid $500 down and $100 / month no interest... Almost got divorced over buying a motorcycle, but my wife rides now (03 Sabre) and is active in a womens riding group.
Thanx for reading..
Quote from: hootmon on August 16, 2008, 12:13:45 AM
I wish I could find a water proof rocker switch, I've already had to replace the switch once.
I have my switch mounted to the bracket of my windscreen so it is out of the rain while driving and somewhat protected while parked. I got a water resistant switch from a boat supply store (West Marine). Then I added some black PVC to protect it and so it would blend into the shadows.
I originally ran the hot wire from the battery with in line fuse, left the lights on a couple times during the daylight hours :-? and decided that it would be less likely to leave the lights on accidently if they went off when I removed the key. I still have the rocker switch so I can choose when and if I want to run the lights.
My auxiliary lights also turn off with the key and I have an on-off switch mounted on the plastic panel in front of the tank.
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on August 16, 2008, 12:43:07 AM
I originally ran the hot wire from the battery with in line fuse, left the lights on a couple times during the daylight hours :-? and decided that it would be less likely to leave the lights on accidently if they went off when I removed the key. I still have the rocker switch so I can choose when and if I want to run the lights.
Charles, thanks for the pics. Great looking installation. I am off to Wal-Mart!! :cool:
Also, for the record, with my installation, the rocker switch actuates a relay that operates the lights. The rocker switch is in series with the key switch, so I can't leave the lights on with the bike turned off. :cool:
Charles, did you build them mounts for your wal-mart lights? Or did the lights come with them. I'm with Lawrence on this one...good looking lights and not $200!!. Maybe off to wal-mart after get off work tonight . 8) :D
Here are some PICs of the installation of the Kuryakun Silver Bullet lights on Devs bike that I installed several years ago.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Thanks Greg for the pictures :D I would still like to see a close-up of a mount from the bike to the actual light itself if anyone had one. :grin: Thanks
OK, what wire did you use for your hot wire. I use the lights only at night so I have not left them on YET. :lol:
First, the brackets and everything came with the lights, I just bolted them on to the windshield mounts. I wired into the ign switch, spliced into the wire that's hot when the key is in the on position, then run it thru the aux switch that imounted on the right hand side cover. Here are the lights and everything that comes with them.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2538.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2542.jpg)
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n99/oldman_05/IMG_2540.jpg)
I forgot I had bought a second set for my wifes Shadow, just haven't installed them yet. Hopes this helps.
Great pics, Charles. Thanks. Tried to go to Wally World today, but it being tax holiday, couldn't get near the place!! :shock:
Now I know exactly what I am looking for.
You know, since you already have the pics, you might want to write this up under "Tips and Tricks" section. Had I seen them there, it would have saved me at least $100!! :cool:
One thing I still have to do is to lower my turn signals, they are a little hard to see that close. I can slide them down to the top of the fork brace and it will be enough I think.
OK.. Back on topic here... I found this link where someone was investigating Regulator failures on VFR's...
Some of you electronic byte heads might really enjoy....
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6198/reg-rect.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6198/reg-rect.html)
Quote from: hootmon on August 21, 2008, 02:34:32 PM
OK.. Back on topic here... I found this link where someone was investigating Regulator failures on VFR's...
Some of you electronic byte heads might really enjoy....
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6198/reg-rect.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6198/reg-rect.html)
Great link, hoot! Just guessing, the regulator on the VFR was dissipating even more heat than ours. When I compare his temp measurements with ours, they are similar, and our regulator is not in contact with heat conductive material. This pretty much ends speculation regarding the value of a fan/heat sink combo. I would expect such a setup to make an even bigger difference to our regulators because there appears to be no significant conduction path on ours, like the frame on theirs.
There is still the issue of water resistance. The computer fans were not designed to withstand water. But, hey, I bought a pack of four of 'em at Fry's for like $6, so if one freezes up, I could simply replace it. I think I will try to fit one of these. I have a relay for my extra lights mounted a few inches from the regulator, so it may not be too difficult. Will post results if I pull it off. :cool:
"OK.. Back on topic here... I found this link where someone was investigating Regulator failures on VFR's...
Some of you electronic byte heads might really enjoy...."
"might really enjoy" :D are you kidding! have you read all 12 pages of this thread , a couple of these guys got so excited they were hyperventilating :D :D :D. .. matter of fact a few of us have developed inferiority complexes over all the tech talk...
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on August 16, 2008, 09:18:52 PM
One thing I still have to do is to lower my turn signals, they are a little hard to see that close. I can slide them down to the top of the fork brace and it will be enough I think.
I put my lights on this afternoon. My turn signal mounts also hold the round bar that makes the back of the headlight mount stable. In order to lower the turn signals, I would have to find or create a method to attach the headlight stabilizer bar to the fork tubes.
Nonetheless, it is a fine looking set of lights. I am still pondering how to disguise the wires out the back of each for minimum clutter, though. I did not use the wiring harness that came with the kit, as I already had relay switched power on the fork for the "big ugly" lights I had installed last year. :smile:
*huff* *huff* *huff* Sorry, had to catch my breath there. Got too excited over the VFR link.
Yeah, we should probably have taken that discussion offline, but there ain't no way to compare notes without resorting to shoptalk.
Speaking of which, I'm trying to chat up one of the engineers at work who has way more experience with various battery chargers than I do. His question for me was "Are you trying to get a more robust regulator or prevent damage to the battery?" I replied with an emphatic "Yes!" He said he will dig up some specific literature on lead-acid and AGM batteries, since both can be encountered on the aftermarket for motorcycles. I'm going to see if I can trick him, I mean ask him to provide some design guidance to make sure that we don't overlook something critical and to suggest a thorough testing program. Nobody's going to be real happy with a redesign that regulates perfectly and extends battery life by 25 years if it fries the electronic ignition. :shock:
Don't laugh. My niece's Volkswagen died due to high-frequency crap from an aftermarket stereo that got into the electrical system and killed the engine controller.
I have already had the turn signals slid down ,the round bracket actually holds the turn signal in place so it won't slid down and doesn't effect the headlight stability. When I slide the turn signals down to the fork brace it can't go any lower, I put a small piece of two sided tape behind the rubber clamp and tightened it down, nothing ever moved, The brkt is not really even noticable. I had even thought about putting a couple of led's on the brkt to disguise it, but like i said it just wasn't noticable.
Quote from: hootmon on August 21, 2008, 02:34:32 PM
OK.. Back on topic here... I found this link where someone was investigating Regulator failures on VFR's...
Some of you electronic byte heads might really enjoy....
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6198/reg-rect.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6198/reg-rect.html)
After perusing these links carefully, I suddenly got enthused about mounting a fan on the heat sink for my Rectifier/Regulator. Got out the fan and began placing it on the bum R/R that Dave sent me. It is a pretty good fit.
Then I looked again at the space around the R/R on the bike. There is enough clearance between the fins and the top of the swing arm to mount a fan, but I am not so sure about how much clearance one needs for swing arm movement. I can picture carrying a passenger and going over my cattleguard on the way out to the road, and suddenly the fan gets crushed like a bug on the windshield.
Does anyone have any data on swing arm movement?? :???:
Put a piece of styrofoam on it and turn your shock as low as possible and go in search of a large pot hole or rough railroad track and give er a try.
Look in the manual for rear shock travel, hold a straight edge at the swingarm pivot point even with the top edge of the swingarm to right under the shock. Move the rear edge by the shock up the number of travel inches and see where that would position your swingarm under the R/R.
Back a couple of topics.. Round Chrome Platinum Burner lights..
Went to Walmart.. They had three types of lights from this company... no Round Chrome only black square... :sad:
It didn't look like there was an empty space either...
I've attached what I have now... It works pretty well, I'm sure two would be better, it is not too Obtrusive.. and may just stay with it for now.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Nice looking installation. I like that it is easier to hide the wires. I am still thinking about how to re-route mine to make them a little less obvious.
How many watts is this light? What type bulb does it use?
It is a standard H-3 bulb, probably the same as yours.. Of course there is only one light instead of two.
Harbor Freight has something real similar to those Hootman, I have 2 installed on mine close to the lower radiator mounts. They use either the 35 or 55 watt bulb.
That is where I got mine.
Hey Terry, I have a buddy that rides a vtx1300 and he put his running lights down by his highway pegs as well.. The only problem is he keeps getting his lens cracked because of road debris, etc. Have you had this problem yet..? I have purchased the exact lights that Charles and Lawrence have from Wal-Mart. Thinking about mounting them lower like you have, just concerned about busting them up. I have a perfect spot to mount them, about the same height as the horn on each side.. :D
One concern with the lights from Walmart, If you noticed the lens screws on with a ring, make sure that you check this and it is on correctly. The first set I bought I didn't check and the ring came off, probably misaligned during assembly. Wal Mart replaced it, I checked the next set and have had no more trouble.
Lance,
It's not been an issue with these. They've been on the bike over ten years with one which has cracked though does not show point of impact, makes me wonder if the lens was Hot and I hit it with cold water at the car wash. Depending on the thickness of the lens I could see that being an issue. These are fairly thick and curved. If you had a flat thin lens well you are libel to have some breakage.
I don't know that it's an issue, mine may be the only one in the world that has ever fell off. Just thought I'd mention it. It's a good idea to check anything you buy over before you install or use it.. Don't you think!!
I've been riding for a few days - back and forth to work - and my low beam head light went out. My high beam is working fine. Surely this is just coincidnetal and has nothing to do with my recently replaced r/r? right?
Did you check the voltage output of the new regulator with a volt meter???
You may want to do that if you blew a bulb, just as a precaution.
Output should be around 14.7 VDC.
I just replace mine and at 3K and above it puts out ~15VDC..
Most likely a fluke when mine went it was also the low beam guess thats the one we use the most lol
Yes, you can use a "Fluke" :lol: multi-meter (they make a great product), I have a radio shack (Because I'm "frugal")
My High Beam gets the most workout for me.. I use it during the day time which is my commute almost everyday. I've never actually lost a bulb on the Magna, but have replaced it a couple of times trying to get better / brighter light, which has improved since I replaced my R/R...
BTW, I lost a headlight (both low/High beam) on a moonless night, up on a 50' levy on a twisty narrow 2 lane road in Sacramento, with farm fields on one side and a river on the other going about 60 one night... Hence the reason I have my extra light on my Magna, affectionately known as my "Levy Light" see photo about 12 post back...
Quote from: hootmon on August 28, 2008, 08:23:05 PM
Yes, you can use a "Fluke" :lol: multi-meter (they make a great product), I have a radio shack (Because I'm "frugal")
My High Beam gets the most workout for me.. I use it during the day time which is my commute almost everyday. I've never actually lost a bulb on the Magna, but have replaced it a couple of times trying to get better / brighter light, which has improved since I replaced my R/R...
BTW, I lost a headlight (both low/High beam) on a moonless night, up on a 50' levy on a twisty narrow 2 lane road in Sacramento, with farm fields on one side and a river on the other going about 60 one night... Hence the reason I have my extra light on my Magna, affectionately known as my "Levy Light" see photo about 12 post back...
So, hoot, did you get wet??
He's looking for his Magna in the River, thought he could walk on water.
Actually, this was before the 1st Magna.. Now I'm showing my age... It was a '76 Honda 750. I didn't get wet or dirty (Except between my legs :shock:)... I got the bike slowed down and ran about 5-8 miles an hour using just the marker light glow as my guide.. After about 10 minutes (which seemed a lot longer) a car came up behind me, I let him pass and then I followed close behind him until I got to a more populated area.
I'll throw this one in for free... A friend suggests (20+ years later), You could have stopped and took a screw driver out of your tool bag and removed the yellow cover from the marker lights and it would have been much brighter... So if you do not have a levy light, and this ever happens to you.. My suggestion, (beside ALWAYS carry a flashlight!!!) to remove your lens covers...
Very good idea!!! So is carrying a spare bulb.. Oh excuse me LEVY LIGHT LOL :grin: :grin:
Pre-2000 VFRs sometimes suffer from an overheated regulator/rectifier, a $100 part. While the replacement part is an improvement over the original, it has become commonplace for owners to buy a $10 CPU fan and glue it onto the rectifier. Spliced into the tail-light bulb wire, it provides extra cooling to protect the sensitive electronic unit.
This is a direct quote from the vfr files. This makes me wonder when they changed the design in 2000 according to their quote, if they changed the one in the magna as well?? Just some info I stumbled upon..
More data...
After I lost one of my side panels to dumb thumbs, I took the other one off so it wouldn't be blown off. (I am waiting on a new panel to arrive...) As I rode in this condition, I noticed the calves of my legs getting very warm -- so much so that I really wished I had some highway pegs!!
So that made me wonder -- will the R/R run cooler without the side panels?
Well, today I reran the prior experiment (posted on page 4 of this thread) without side panels. And the results are:
With Side Panels Without Side Panels
Before startup 29C 25C
After 3 min at 3000 rpm or less 57C 41C
Riding at 55 mph in 5th gear stabilizes at 66C 59C
Turned on 100 watts lights -- stabilizes at 65C 58C
When I slowed down to street traffic speed 73C 61C
Parked -- just stopped 76C 61C
After 3 minutes or so -- returned to bike - 57C 41C
W/C Temperature rise from ambient 47C 36C
So riding without side panels could mean a 10C difference in maximum temperature or a 5C difference in average temperature. Not that many folks are going to want to do that, but if you are concerned on a hot day that you might smoke your R/R, you might leave the side panels at home.
(Sorry for the snaky columns. This deal is definitely not WYSIWYG!!
Lawrence -
I wish I knew the difference since my R/R move...
(http://i34.tinypic.com/w8wajn.jpg)
Hootman, how did you mount that?? Detailed instructions please!!! :cool: :grin:
I cut out a piece of aluminum in the shape of the R/R with a extra amount at the bottom (a little like the shape of Nevada).
I Installed a longer Exhaust mount bolt with a nut against the inside of the mount plate and another nut, then the plate, then another nut.. This allows to space the plate near the fender.
I drilled an additional hole in the Exhaust mount plate (a little further back) and did the same nut set up...
I was replacing my R/R anywayz due to R/R failure. The replacement had cable leads twice the length of my previous R/R (Not stock). If it had not been longer, it would be possible to peel back the wires out of the harness running along the cross bar, behind the battery, to get to the new location...
I painted the plate with Heat paint and put Heat Sink compound between the plate and the R/R.
I still need to put some Electrical tape around the wires coming out of the R/R to hide some of the bold colors of the wires.
I will say it still gets pretty warm to the touch, but has to be a little cooler than it's stock location...
Let me know if I confused you anywhere or if you need any additional info.. To me it seemed to be a better option than adding a non-waterproof PC fan...
Thanks.. :grin: and I like it.. Doesn't look too bad either.. Any takers on re-routing like this.. I might just do it come winter time.. Thanks for the write-up. :grin:
I agree, Hoot, this is a better solution than a fan. Thanks for posting this.
Could you please post a picture with the side panel in place? I am having a problem visualizing this installation. If you ever have to disassemble this for any reason, please capture some pix of the plate, bolts, etc.
See if these pictures help...
The top of the plate (which is not clearly shown) is exactly the size of the R/R
Behind the plate, there is about a 1/4" between the nut that hold the R/R to the plate toward the rear and the fender, more space on the front nut.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/2e5sab7.jpg)
(http://i35.tinypic.com/2q8vgbk.jpg)
For a picture with the side cover installed, check out page 10 of this Subject then click on the picture for an enlarged view.
Quote from: hootmon on September 16, 2008, 07:35:53 PM
See if these pictures help...
The top of the plate (which is not clearly shown) is exactly the size of the R/R
Behind the plate, there is about a 1/4" between the nut that hold the R/R to the plate toward the rear and the fender, more space on the front nut.
For a picture with the side cover installed, check out page 10 of this Subject then click on the picture for an enlarged view.
The latest pictures are much clearer -- thanks much. I now understand what you have done (I think). This is probably going to be the optimum solution -- get the fins out into the slipstream, and tie the back to the frame.
How thick is the plate you mounted the R/R on?
If I understand correctly, the R/R is flat against the plate with a silicone heat transfer gel of some sort, and the nuts you refer to hold the plate away from the frame. Is this correct?
If you can reach down while riding and touch the fins without having to remove your finger, the temperature is no more than 50C. I can keep my fingers on 50C metal for maybe a minute. At 55C, I will pull off in a few seconds at most. :shock:
I wouldn't say the regulator is in the "slipstream", it is behind my leg, then the side cover, so it doesn't get a 50 MPH blast of air, but whatever air it does get is also not as preheated as the original location, but still some heat coming off the cylinders I'm sure.
I think it was 1/8" Aluminum... I'd check the receipt, but the place gave me the piece for free after cutting it for me!!!
The large plate mounting bolts are connected to the exhaust mount.
The nuts I spoke about with fender clearances are the two nuts that hold the R/R to the plate.
The multiple nuts on the larger plate holding bolts are used so that the distance from the fender can be adjusted.
By your scale (Highly scientific, I'm sure) I'd say it is running 52C which still sounds better than your number without side panels. Per the Website, this R/R is supposed to produce 8% more power over stock and I measured output at a full 15VDC above 3K RPM, so if it is still running cooler than your test, I'd say I'm pleased with the result. :-D
Thanks for the explanation. Sorry my skull is so thick!!
You probably said earlier, but since you are using an aftermarket R/R now, I presume your OEM R/R failed? Did it just quit, or did it wreck your battery with over-voltage?
Also what year model is your pretty third gen?
The info is way earlier in the thread.. But in short...
I purchased my '94 Magna used about 4 years ago.. The guy I bought it from said he had just replaced the battery.. (Long story- earlier in the thread if you want to read) the R/R was bad and putting out high voltage. I replaced with R/R from Old Bike Barn. (remember 4 years and 40K miles ago.) Recently my bike died in the middle of a busy road (Slowing down for a stop light).. Battery was drained... Checked and Regulator not putting out voltage.. I believe the R/R has been having an issue for probably about a year, because if I ran with my brights on and my Aux light, then my battery would drain, but if I ran with just by brights then it would maintain my battery. I Replaced the R/R due to no voltage output... Now I can run brights and aux light...
Does that answer your questions???
Yes it does. Thank you very much. I had confused your bike with another, newer one.
We still don't have a documented case of a later model (2000+) R/R on a Magna failing.
By the way, if your aftermarket unit claims more output power, it may also be more efficient -- so the fact that it doesn't get as hot doesn't unambiguously validate the efficacy of your mounting method. I still think it is the best way to go, and intend to have mine so mounted before hot weather returns to Texas next spring. 8)
Once again.. If the leads on the R/R are short, you can take where the R/R cables come out of the harness, peel back the tape, you can bring the wires from coming out the left side of the harness to the right side of the harness. This will provide plenty of cable to still attach the R/R in the new location...
I did not have to do this because the new R/R had cables twice as long as the OEM/OldBikeBarn R/R.
We still don't have a documented case of a later model (2000+) R/R on a Magna failing.
We still don't have a documented case of a later model (2000+) R/R on a Magna failing. I hope it comes to pass that Honda may have changed the R/R in the newer models. Picking up my 4-wheeler at the Honda dealership yesterday,(due to a recall on the front cv joints) I quizzed the guys on this question.. They pulled up the part number and the parts guy said he wasn't for sure but it was a possibility they did change.. (Really no help from the guy) but there was 2 people behind me and I didn't want to hold them up.. Back to square one...
Lawrence
While your riding.. Put you hand behind your side cover and you will get an indication of how much air circulates in the area, It's not as much as I had hoped, but again, still better than it's original location, in my opinion...
Quote from: hootmon on September 18, 2008, 09:20:49 AM
Lawrence
While your riding.. Put you hand behind your side cover and you will get an indication of how much air circulates in the area, It's not as much as I had hoped, but again, still better than it's original location, in my opinion...
Will do that, hoot. Once I get my side covers back on the bike. Still waiting for a replacement I ordered to arrive at the Honda dealer in New Braunfels. Then I have to paint it. They say the definition of insanity is to expect different results from the same errant behavior, so it is clear at this point that I qualify... :(
Will someone please recap the highlights of this thread I think I might have missed something :D :D :D..
Recap - R/R bad design on 1999 and earlier, Blah, Blah, Blah
Some people put on PC fan to add cooling, Blah, Blah, Blah
Geek talk about re-design, we can build it bigger, better, faster, we have the technology... Blah Blah
Some dude decided he would be different and move the regulator to behind the right side panel. Blah
Recap Please...
so would anyone venture to say that california models would be more susceptible to this failure due to an extreme abundancy of vacuum hoses and other parts?
Someone needs to keep this post alive.. So might as well be me!!
There was some discussion about Battery gauges... I ran across this one on J&P cycles webpage.
It also comes in Black for a couple of dollars cheaper...
(http://i35.tinypic.com/347a3dh.jpg)
Hey Hootman, I did notice that battery meter as well. Looks good.. :grin:
Recently had a regulator fail..on a 94 model.
Have extended the wires and mounted it underneath the rear rack which I made. Its not really visible there but it does get fresh cooling air flowing over it. When the engine is running I can keep my hand on it now...before in its original location under the battery I think it would have taken skin off.
Conner, you are right. If you look back in this thread, you will see that the measured temps on the heat sink fins reached nearly 70C. Most folks can hold their hands on 55C for a few seconds, on 50C for as much as a minute, and 45C forever. Depends on the surface, of course, and whether you are a chef :-) -- My wife has asbestos hands!! :shock:
The carrier rack I made up is of steel painted black its about 12 inches by 9.
The regulator is bolted directly to the underside with its cooling fins pointing fore and aft. The rack itself acts as a good heat shunt for the regulator as well as cooling air flowing over it when on the move.
I managed to run the extended wiring behind the chrome trim on the side of the rear mudguard / fender... so next to nothing is visible. The cable I used is just one thicker cable which has 7 wires in it...Its the type of cable we used in England to wire in to a towing hitch socket on the rear of our cars. All the connections were soldered and insulated with pvc tape.
So far...so good...
When that 12 year old comes walking down the street we would like to see pictures. :lol:
Hello Iragan....
I noticed on the original failed regulator that upon starting the engine the output voltage was steady at 14.8 volts at idle speed....however within a few minutes of engine running the voltage steadily but surely crept up to 18.7 volts and the regulators metal casing was then too hot to touch.
I left the bike standing for maybe an hour and then restarted it...initially voltage again was steady at 14.8 volts but it rapidly ascended again.
At the time my attention was drawn to a possible regulator problem because on starting from cold the engine ran perfectly...however within say 8 to 10 minutes of running on the road a misfire became apparent. It felt like the coils were starting to fire erratically
On returning to my workshop I checked the output voltage and sure enough it was up around 18.5 volts. I then guessed this higher output was affecting the ignition system and thus causing the misfire.
Have had similar problems in the past with customers cars when their alternators built in voltage control unit has failed. Have had cases where ignition coils and other electrical components have been damaged...ie radios, bulbs blown etc.
Am sure you will agree that this electrickery can sure be fun and cause problems..!!
Some years ago back in the UK I was a Patrolman with the AA..( Think you call it the AAA..) I attended a car breakdown where...the clutch cable..accelerator cable AND the choke cable had seized up. All caused by one bad earth ( Negative ) connection to the cars body/chassis. Upon trying to start the cars engine the current sought alternative routes back to the battery negative terminal..clutch cable..acc' cable...choke cable. So much current flowed through them that they began to melt and eventually seized up completely.
The poor chap was pulling his hair out... I won't use the language he used...but suffice it to say that he was just a little peeved.
"All that caused by one bad ****ing connection...!" He yelled.
Connor, I don't know of any failures on our Magnas induced by high voltage, except the batteries. Of course, after some time at the higher voltage, they boil dry and are, almost literally "toast", to use an American expression. The other failure mode seems to be they just quit charging the battery which gradually discharges to the point the bike will no longer run, much less start.
Yes, I can easily see where the cable failures you document above would accrue if the battery ground (earth) connection fails -- starter current on a typical V-8 engine can reach 300 amps!
Well at least we do not have to deal with Lucas electrics aka "The Prince of Darkness" :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, my bike died on the way back from a 110 mile round trip tonight..
I noted the gauge lights looked dim..
I was running with two Harleys :oops: and 3 Honda's.. On a busy Highway (Not Freeway or Parkway, or whatever you call interstates in Texas).. After a couple of stop lights Just barely pulled the bike into a drugstore parking lot before the motor died (Dead Battery)..
I will perform testing Saturday morning, but it looks to be a regulator issue... Again... In the parking lot, I checked the connectors and all seems to be connected.
I will update once I know more... :( :x :cry:
Quote from: hootmon on October 31, 2008, 11:15:57 PM
Well, my bike died on the way back from a 110 mile round trip tonight..
I noted the gauge lights looked dim..
I was running with two Harleys :oops: and 3 Honda's.. On a busy Highway (Not Freeway or Parkway, or whatever you call interstates in Texas).. After a couple of stop lights Just barely pulled the bike into a drugstore parking lot before the motor died (Dead Battery)..
I will perform testing Saturday morning, but it looks to be a regulator issue... Again... In the parking lot, I checked the connectors and all seems to be connected.
I will update once I know more... :( :x :cry:
Well Hoot, I will leave you along when your down............ :-x
Oh the heck with it...you are Now on all the Harley forums being talked about the Honda that couldn't, the Honda, that needed help from a Harley no doubt, Harley's moving up in the world when Hondas are failing, this is good watercooler stuff, hang on Hoot, what, what is this ....I've just received 3 emails from Harley guys in Florida telling me what happened!
What do we do now, Hoot you have to get up by your boot straps and redeem yourself, fix it and tell the Harley guys your were pulling there leg for the fun of it, you really ran out of gas w/o those fancy gauges they have. :-P :-P
Let us know what you find out.
Quote from: TLRam1 on October 31, 2008, 11:31:20 PM
you are Now on all the Harley forums being talked about the Honda that couldn't, the Honda, that needed help from a Harley no doubt...
Well, I got to ride my 1st Harley today, a Road King... Oh, did I mention I was on the Back riding 817ch :oops: with my wife riding her own bike behind us :oops: :oops: :oops: ... Bet that was in the forum too...
BTW - The Harley was EVERYTHING I expected, and not what I had been told... We rode for about 10 miles... By the time we arrived, I was partially deaf in my right ear, and my right foot was numb from the vibration.. I had been told that the newer Harleys shook a lot at idle, but smoothed out when running at speed.. This does NOT discribe my experience..
Dead batteries don't count, and there is no point in mentioning the regulator in mixed company, simply mention that it's what you get for not buying a Honda battery :shock:. At least that was my story :D.
This has become a perpetual thread and there is no way I'm going back thru 15 pages to see if someone has already ask this question , but have we discussed whether or not this problem exist with other models of bikes, or have we just discussed the Magna R/R. The reason I'm asking is because the second hand R/R off the salvage 450 Honda Rebel that I put on mine is still working flawlessly and so is Guy Wheatley's. Could it be more of an internal design flaw than Placement on the Magna. Like I said, if this has already been discussed and eliminated, please disregard above babble..
"have we discussed whether or not this problem exist with other models of bikes"
Charles;
It has been discussed.. It has also been forwarded that nobody has seen a 2000+ bike with a failure.
In my case, I replaced my regulator a few months back (again) the last regulator lasted about 4 years which I bought from Old Bike Barn. This regulator I moved the placement to behind the right side cover behind the passenger peg.. There are pictures in this thread if you care to go back and look..
I will be going out and performing checks to determine my exact issue.
Here is a liget question though... How many owners of 2000+ year model bikes have 20,000 plus miles?? It may be the "I'm tired and don't want to work anymore" factor on older bikes.(regarding the R/R). My bike has 14,000 on the odometer. Mine could fail at 20,000 miles.. Who knows.. May be we need to compile a list (Terry) :P of the year models, mileage of failure and see if something resembles of the bikes that have had faulty R/R. IMO.
Quote from: L J BAD MAG on November 01, 2008, 09:15:37 AM
May be we need to compile a list (Terry) :P of the year models, mileage of failure and see if something resembles of the bikes that have had faulty R/R. IMO.
I asked for the same reasons you mentioned and was doing this very list but only 2-3 people responded.
I will start another post or (If I can locate) resurrect my old post regarding this issue.
OK.. The Regulator seems to be OK (per resistence measurements)..
The connector is NOT.. (See below).
One of the Green wire connectors got very hot and melted the plastic and turned the plastic from white to black... The connector had been damaged some previously, but not nearly this badly...
So expert speculators.. here you go..
1) the connection was already bad which caused more resistance which caused more heat which caused the connection to over heat and melt the plastic
2) there was too much current draw or produced by the regulator that overloaded the connector/wire which caused it to overheat and melt the plastic
Either way... Do I try to get two new connectors (male/female) and see if it happens again?
If I have to replace the connector anyways, should I swap it out to something better? If I do, then am I just going to move the failure into the wiring harness somewhere, IF a problem still exists?
Thank you in advance for your responses...
(http://i37.tinypic.com/wwf3p5.jpg)
(http://i33.tinypic.com/3449uyr.jpg)
Quote from: hootmon on November 01, 2008, 03:48:50 PM
OK.. The Regulator seems to be OK (per resistence measurements)..
The connector is NOT.. (See below).
One of the Green wire connectors got very hot and melted the plastic and turned the plastic from white to black... The connector had been damaged some previously, but not nearly this badly...
So expert speculators.. here you go..
1) the connection was already bad which caused more resistance which caused more heat which caused the connection to over heat and melt the plastic
2) there was too much current draw or produced by the regulator that overloaded the connector/wire which caused it to overheat and melt the plastic
Either way... Do I try to get two new connectors (male/female) and see if it happens again?
If I have to replace the connector anyways, should I swap it out to something better? If I do, then am I just going to move the failure into the wiring harness somewhere, IF a problem still exists?
Thank you in advance for your responses...
I will gladly speculate to your questions, and I choose option 1). If these connectors were functioning properly, overload would probably take out semiconductors, not connectors. The indication that it was already damaged also points to this explanation as being most probable.
It will be difficult to go back with stock connectors. All these connector sets are assembled with tools made specially for that purpose. If you don't have the proper tool, it will be tough to get it right. If you need the quick disconnect feature intact, I would recommend looking into Molex connectors. They have been around a very long time, and have a good record of reliability. This series should do well for you:http://www.molex.com/molex/family/intro.jsp?superFamOID=-8810&pageTitle=Introduction&channel=Products&familyOID=-8623&chanName=family&frellink=Introduction. Again, be sure to understand the tool requirements.
If you decide you don't need the quick disconnect feature, I would use automotive end-on splicer sleeves of the right size, obtainable at any auto parts store. You can probably buy a kit with the connectors and the suageing tool at Harbor Freight or Wall Mart.
Good luck. Let us know what you decide to do.
You can't beat solder and heat shrink.. eliminates any chance of another bad connection and it is easy enough to melt the solder if you need to, that's not a plug you need to disconnect very often is it?
You're probably not going to be replacing a regulator by the side of the road or in a parking lot, so soldering it would certainly give you the best connection if you get a good solder joint. Still, I think I'd prefer a good quality connector such as Lawrence is recommending. After all, anything you do that takes the OEM connector out of the picture is going to leave you having to improvise if you do try to swap out the regulator on a road trip. Maybe a wire stripper and some good quality wire nuts should be in our portable tool kits for just such occasions.
By the way, Hootmon, any evidence of contact corrosion in that connector?
I must respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleagues regarding solder. Solder does not have a good reliability record at the end of wires in high vibration environments. The wires fatigue right at the point where the solder stops, unless you have great strain relief to prevent this vibration. Crimped connectors have a much better record. They have strain relief "built in", in that there is a short piece of larger diameter metal that surrounds the insulation and holds it in place. Wire nuts will work, too, and don't require a special tool. They are not "in line" and make a larger lump, but they work.
I would go with the crimp connectors for a cheap solution. If you can slip a large piece of heat-shrink tubing over the entire wire array before you make the splices, then slide it up over the splices and shrink it, you will get a neat looking package with additional strain relief built in. 8)
If you choose to keep a connector, I recommend going to a 6 pin one with the same size pins as the original. I solder spliced each wire into two short stubs on each side of the connector. The current doesn't divide exactly between the two but it is close. I did this six months ago after the second burned pin and there is no sign of overheating now.
Quote from: SkyRide on November 02, 2008, 02:20:11 PM
...I solder spliced each wire into two short stubs on each side of the connector. The current doesn't divide exactly between the two but it is close.
SkyRide;
Thanx for the info, this is very helpful info, since it seems you have been down the same path...
I however do not understand the above statement.. Could you clarify a little more for me..
Thanx
Well;
I have hard soldered the leads together and I seem to have voltage deflection now..
I will update again in a day or two on how things are going.
Stock wiring is 3 wires and 3 pins on each side of the connector. Cut the pin off and solder two short wires to the existing wire and cover with heat shrink. Now take the two new ends and put a pin on each. Repeat 5 more times.
I don't have the crimp tools that Lawrence mentions, so I use a needle nose pliers to bend the tabs of the pin around the wire and then solder it. Just be careful not to let solder flow onto the pin's mating surfaces.
I have seen more corroded, rusted, burnt and melted connectors than I ever have soldered connections, assuming you know how to properly connect and solder wire. IMHO.. :)
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on November 02, 2008, 08:32:56 PM
... assuming you know how to properly connect and solder wire. IMHO.. :)
I used to be an Electronic Technician in an aerospace company, so I have some idea about soldering, etc...
I feel a little better knowing that the wires coming from the regulator are a slightly smaller gauge than in my wiring harness, SO.. If things go bad, it should be on the regulator wire side and not in the middle of my wiring harness somewhere...
The you in "assuming you" was not directed at you personally, but was generic for anyone who might be doing the soldering, because all solders are not created equal. So if I offened you, my bad..
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on November 03, 2008, 08:41:33 AM
So if I offened you, my bad..
You will have to try harder than that Charles..
No worries..
Everything I have read and seen for myself on the subject about soldering vs crimped connectors says Lawrence is right, but it also assumes good crimping. Good crimping, though, usually requires a specialized tool for the connector you're using and can easily run you $300 if you don't have one lying around at the shop. And, of course, a connector that gets moisture in between the contacts starts to corrode and become a high-resistance connection. A friend of mine said he solved that problem on his bike by cleaning and carefully applying a small amount of dielectric grease to the contact surfaces of the connectors on his ancient Kz650, and he says it has completely solved the maddening intermittent electrical problems that were crippling his bike. He also told me that some of the connectors had shown signs before he cleaned them of running hot but that they have not deteriorated further since he applied the grease and that his battery is now reaching full charge when riding.
This is a good input, Mike. I don't know for sure what is meant by "dielectric grease", but I have used a lot of carbon loaded silicone compound in securing house wiring. Putting a dab of this compound on the connectors could yield double dividends:
1) The compound is conductive -- so it carries current across the gaps that inevitably accrue to any sliding contact system.
2) It excludes moisture, thereby preventing corrosion.
I suspect that 2) is by far the larger benefit, but don't really know.
:)
Ok, Bob Barram has answered my much feared question on the Regulator topic post. His 2001 magna R/R boiled over at 15,000 miles.. :shock: Mine has a little over 14,000 on it. Now what... :-?
Quote from: L J BAD MAG on November 07, 2008, 08:36:11 AM
Ok, Bob Barram has answered my much feared question on the Regulator topic post. His 2001 magna R/R boiled over at 15,000 miles.. :shock: Mine has a little over 14,000 on it. Now what... :-?
Buy a volt meter...
(http://i35.tinypic.com/347a3dh.jpg)
Quote from: L J BAD MAG on November 07, 2008, 08:36:11 AM
Ok, Bob Barram has answered my much feared question on the Regulator topic post. His 2001 magna R/R boiled over at 15,000 miles.. :shock: Mine has a little over 14,000 on it. Now what... :-?
Well, that also answers our questions about an improved design starting in 2000. IF it was improved, it apparently was not improved enough. :sad:
Hootmon offered a possible solution by mounting his further from the engine, behind the right side panel -- then his connector gave it up, corrupting the data on that solution somewhat.
Question is, Hoot: Did the damage to the connector occur during the relocation exercise?? And, what did you decide to do to fix it? :???:
Quote from: lragan on November 07, 2008, 09:23:42 AM
Hootmon offered a possible solution by mounting his further from the engine, behind the right side panel -- then his connector gave it up, corrupting the data on that solution somewhat.
Question is, Hoot: Did the damage to the connector occur during the relocation exercise?? And, what did you decide to do to fix it? :???:
[/quote]
The original damage to the connector happened from the 1st regulator going overvoltage...
I never had an issue with the seond regulator on the damaged connector.
The website states that my 3rd Regulator puts out ~5% more power than stock, so I believe the additional current flowing through a damaged connector (More resistance) caused more heat, thus the connector going from damaged to failing..
I cut the connector out and soldered the wires and used heat shrink..
The good thing is the regulator wires are of a lesser gauge than the harness, so if things should go bad, it should not burn up my harness..
I do NOT believe my moving the Regulator had anything to do with my connector failure.
Here are a couple of pictures of the connector..
(http://i35.tinypic.com/1rsnmh.jpg) (http://i37.tinypic.com/wwf3p5.jpg) (http://i33.tinypic.com/3449uyr.jpg)
Quote from: L J BAD MAG on November 07, 2008, 08:36:11 AM
Ok, Bob Barram has answered my much feared question on the Regulator topic post. His 2001 magna R/R boiled over at 15,000 miles.. :shock: Mine has a little over 14,000 on it. Now what... :-?
You have 1000 miles of peaceful uninterrupted riding left, enjoy! Your cell phone, don't leave home without it.
Many 94's have gone out and mine so far so good at 60K miles, hard to say.
Thanks, Hoot.
I still believe that your solution of moving the R/R outboard to a cooler location is the best solution put forward to date. I still intend to have mine similarly mounted before warm weather returns.
I think a relocation would help quite a bit considering the temps Lawerance was getting. Heat is a electronic killer.
SO big question which one of you is going to scout out the best place to relocate it and create a plug and play relocation kit for us all????
COME on, speak up!!! :lol:
I already picked a location and proved it could be done. The new Regulator I purchased had leads plenty long that I did not need and extension. However, IF you moved the regulator to the location I chose, you would still be able to strip the wires back out of the harness and have plenty to reach the new location with the shorter leads.. (See earlier in this thread for my pictures)
OK another option/question, how about a lower belly scoop if you will (ABS plastic or Fiberglass etc) that would direct more air into the current location?
Greg, form committees or work groups to work together, design and make prototypes. I would be glad to head this up when I have time to devote to these projects.
How about all you guys that live further north where the temps are not as hot as it is in Texas, what kind of failure rate do you have? I not convinced that it's just the heat I still think poor design (internally) on the Magna's R/R.
99 magna california model in washington with almost 40,000, original R/R
I know how much all of you enjoy my electrical saga, so here is another chapter...
I was riding around the other day, and I was sitting at a light..
I said to myself, "wow, someone either just got new brakes, or needs new brakes..."
I rode for about another two miles, taking several different roads... I came to another stoplight..
I said to myself "wow, someone either just got new brakes, or needs new brakes, could someone have really followed me this far???"
I then thought.. Ohhh, maybe it's MY brakes.. I had replaced my Brake fluid a little while back, and did replace my rear shoes before that??? Hummm maybe a bad caliper?? I've seen rebuild kits for master cylinders, but not calipers.. Humm I'll have to ask the Mootsters about that" - sometimes I get long winded in my thoughts..
When I got home, brakes seem to be fine, but a similar smell seems to be coming from under my seat.. Hummm that can't be good...
Saturday I rode in the 1st toyrun of the season, it's a short run and not far from my house, but a good cause and ends in an annual bike fest in a local town...
During the ride, I said to myself - "there's that smell again"
I came home early... Last night I took off my seat, fired up the bike, checking the voltage at the battery.. While doing that I hear a snap sound and see a small amount of smoke rising right behind the battery.. The smoke was coming from the "other" regulator connector (Input side from the stator)
After some work, I basically cut off the connector.. Here is what was causing my "brake smell"... I know the pictures are kinda fuzzy, sorry, best I can do with my cameraphone.. basically a big glob of melted plastic and insulation..
(http://i33.tinypic.com/2qvqhqu.jpg) (http://i34.tinypic.com/294jnkp.jpg)
So, Hoot, it appears you have replaced regulator failures with connector failures -- multiple in both cases.
Tell us a little more about the connectors that failed, please
1) They came with the replacement regulator?
2) They mated with the Honda OEM connectors in the harness?
3) One of them WAS the Honda OEM connector in the harness?
When a contact set gets hot like this, it typically destroys both sides, so you may not be able to tell where the heat problem initiated, but it would be good to know.
I don't recall instances of the Honda OEM connectors failing, but that may simply be my lack of attention. None of mine have failed, and none that I have examined appear to have been replaced.
So I am wondering -- did the aftermarket R/R designers get it right on the module and drop the ball on the connectors?? :???:
Quote from: lragan on November 25, 2008, 10:01:22 AM
Tell us a little more about the connectors that failed, please
When a contact set gets hot like this, it typically destroys both sides, so you may not be able to tell where the heat problem initiated, but it would be good to know.
As stated earlier in this tread, my 1st regulator was bad when I purchased the bike and was Over-volting - I attribute (maybe wrongly so) that this damaged the original connectors and at this point to some extent the age of the connectors and heat over time. The original R/R did some minor damage to the OEM connectors, but not enough to make them not work. You are correct that when there is a melt down, everthing becomes a melted glob.
I don't recall instances of the Honda OEM connectors failing, but that may simply be my lack of attention. None of mine have failed, and none that I have examined appear to have been replaced.
I believe the damaged caused some resistence in the connectors. My new regulator is supposed to put out more power than stock, so more power with resistence = heat. heat causes damage, which increases the resistence, which causes heat, which... You see where this is going...
So I am wondering -- did the aftermarket R/R designers get it right on the module and drop the ball on the connectors?? :???:
I believe the aftermarket connectors were probably fine, but the additional output of the R/R plus damaged connectors = meltdown.
Thank you. The lesson here is clear -- if the connectors look a little iffy -- they probably are. :sad:
Quote from: lragan on November 25, 2008, 03:58:01 PM
Thank you. The lesson here is clear -- if the connectors look a little iffy -- they probably are. :sad:
Or beyond iffy in a Jiffy...
Hello All...
I just recently bought a rather sad looking Yamaha Dragstar 400cc which over a period of time am going to renovate.
On checking the bike over I noticed that Yamaha have mounted their voltage rectifier/regulator in front of the engine on a pretty neat looking purpose built bracket. In this location the unit is going to get a nice draft of cooling air flowing over it when the bike is in motion....seems to indicate that Yamaha are concerned about that units operating temperature.
Quote from: connor on November 26, 2008, 08:27:39 AM
I noticed that Yamaha have mounted their voltage rectifier/regulator in front of the engine on a pretty neat looking purpose built bracket.
At least some Harley regulators are done the same way... I've always wondered about all the water and road debris, but it doesn't seem to be a problem.
anyone ever fashion something to direct airflow on these??
Quote from: KTC on November 26, 2008, 03:56:07 PM
anyone ever fashion something to direct airflow on these??
KTC, if they do, I am sure it will be posted here.
I have looked at the problem, but don't have a solution to offer. But then I am an electronics geek, not a mechanical one...
Well, it appears that you can add me to the list.
My 01 Magna (20K miles) is not charging the battery at all, 12.5 volts at rest, 12.16 volts at idle, 3000, & 5000 rpm. I guess the undercharge is a better situation then overcharge, but I'm still 2-wheel-less for a week waiting for a replacement.
Whats the best method to replace the R/R? Through the battery box, through the rear fender, other?? Any other tips?
Rod...
Lurkin, can you post your info here and I will add your info to the list. The info needed is in the first post.
REGULATOR FAILURES - POST HERE
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=2622.0
Quote from: Lurkin on December 01, 2008, 08:48:55 AM
Whats the best method to replace the R/R? Through the battery box, through the rear fender, other?? Any other tips?
Rod...
There is a metal plate that in the battery box and sends two bolt studs down that the R/R mounts to. So, there is no reason to mess with the battery to replace the Regulator.
You can get to the two nuts that hold the regulator on, with some contorsion... I find getting the two connectors disconnected and reconnected as the hardest part of the job. Each connector has a retaining clip and goes through a support mount behind the battery, between the battery box and the rear fender..
Had a little chat with one of the riders here at the office whose Aprilia is down for electrical problems, including the stator and tada! the regulator. What made it more interesting to me, though, since his prior bike was a VFR800, was that he said the regulator had failed on his VFR. A couple of noteworthy points emerged:
1) The regulator quit at 20K miles.
2) When he obtained a replacement Honda regulator, he noted the cooling fins were substantially taller than those of the original unit.
Judging from the posts in this thread and in Terry's regulator failure tracking thread, that seems to be in the same ballpark for mileage as the majority of failures reported by Magna owners. Just from recollection, the typical spread seems to lie between 15K and 20K miles
I don't know how many miles have been put on the bike since because he has since sold it for an Italian bike with even more expensive ailments, but I think it had another 6K miles on it after the regulator change. The point here, though, is that Honda have obviously been aware of the issue and somebody in engineering thought they weren't getting enough heat out so the surface area of the heatsink was dramatically increased.
You are right mike, the VFR's do have the same problem.
Back last year while we were discussing the R/R problems, I went to the VFR website and spied on their R/R issues. They have as many or if not more problems than the magna does. However, they feel that their problem is even more challenging due to the fact that with all the plastics on the VFR, their is NO air flow to the R/R.
Some VFR riders are even carrying spare R/R with them when they go on extended trips. Not a bad idea.
19 pages to sift through...
But as far as I can tell I have a dead R/R
96, with 23k miles on it.
using the volt meter, there is hardly 1.0 anything, it's about 0.8 or so.
as far as I can tell the "bigger and better" group effort replacemet is still in development stages.
There has not been an agreed place to move the R/R to.
I still have my bad one if someone wants to "play" with a bad one.
so what do I look for if I wanted to pull one off a different bike?
I'm glad I didn't have the overcharging issue that some of you had. I had the undercharging issue.
Quote from: HardDriveUSA on February 26, 2009, 05:01:03 PM
19 pages to sift through..
But as far as I can tell I have a dead R/R
96, with 23k miles on it.
using the volt meter, there is hardly 1.0 anything, it's about 0.8 or so.
as far as I can tell the "bigger and better" group effort replacemet is still in development stages.
There has not been an agreed place to move the R/R to.
I still have my bad one if someone wants to "play" with a bad one.
so what do I look for if I wanted to pull one off a different bike?
I'm glad I didn't have the overcharging issue that some of you had. I had the undercharging issue.
Use the search.. There is a link to a Magna Manual. There are resistance checks you can do to see if the Regulator is indicating - Good...
Lonnie,
Can you post your info here.
REGULATOR FAILURES - POST HERE
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=2622.0
One more question. I was told I should be ready to replace the stator, because it could be part of the problem. Has anyone else had to replace the stator and R/R at the same time? Or is someone telling me this to get some more $$ out of me? Not really sure what could go wrong with a stator, but I would assume at some point they would.
Quote from: HardDriveUSA on March 04, 2009, 01:01:57 AM
One more question. I was told I should be ready to replace the stator, because it could be part of the problem. Has anyone else had to replace the stator and R/R at the same time? Or is someone telling me this to get some more $$ out of me? Not really sure what could go wrong with a stator, but I would assume at some point they would.
I have replaced my R/R twice and the Stator is still going strong.. Once again, download the manual and it tells you how to test the R/R & Stator with a volt meter.. I would not replace the stator unless it fails the Volt meter test..
I replaced the regulator on my 94 in sept 08, no problems since, picked up a new one from a salvage yard here in Phx $105.00, I will see how it does when the heat cranks up here.
Quote from: vonE on March 16, 2009, 09:57:03 PM
I replaced the regulator on my 94 in sept 08, no problems since, picked up a new one from a salvage yard here in Phx $105.00, I will see how it does when the heat cranks up here.
Welcome from Safety Harbor, Fl..
Any idea what year bike the regulator came off of?? 94-2000 known to have short life issues..
Did you have a No charge failure or an overcharge failure?? (I've had both)
vonE,
Can you post your info here.
REGULATOR FAILURES - POST HERE
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=2622.0
I am keeping track of these for easy referral.
Welcome to MOOT.
Start a post and introduce yourself, where you are from, etc.
8) Got the regulator changed out, cranked her up, and showed a little bit over 14 volts on meter. =) I'm glad that fixed it.
although it was harder to put back together than take apart. :P
Quote from: HardDriveUSA on February 26, 2009, 05:01:03 PM
19 pages to sift through...
But as far as I can tell I have a dead R/R
96, with 23k miles on it.
using the volt meter, there is hardly 1.0 anything, it's about 0.8 or so.
as far as I can tell the "bigger and better" group effort replacemet is still in development stages.
There has not been an agreed place to move the R/R to.
I still have my bad one if someone wants to "play" with a bad one.
so what do I look for if I wanted to pull one off a different bike?
I'm glad I didn't have the overcharging issue that some of you had. I had the undercharging issue.
Quote from: HardDriveUSA on March 17, 2009, 03:24:44 AM
8) Got the regulator changed out, cranked her up, and showed a little bit over 14 volts on meter. =) I'm glad that fixed it.
although it was harder to put back together than take apart. :P
Congrats on the regulator..
Did you go with a used one (if so, do you know what year bike it came off of?)
Or did you get a new one, and if so where?
Technically a Regulator should put out about 14.7 volts, but 1) you meter is probably not calibrated 2) IF it truly is 14V, it's probably enough and you may get slightly longer battery life since the regulators do not shut off when the battery is full.
Thanx for the update!!!
Could we get you to put where your from in your profile??
didn't remember exact numbers, it was a lil over 14. better than the 12v or so before. :lol: A new one from bikebandit.com.
Is it not there? shall fix that =)
Hello All,
Had a regulator/rectifier fail on me a few months back, it was overcharging. I was not happy with its original location beneath the battery where things get pretty hot.
I made myself a rear carrier rack and have bolted the new regulator to the underside of the rack where it is barely visible. I extended the wiring from the original regulators location and managed to run the new wires so they are not visible either. The rack is made of steel and this seems to act as a good heat shunt for the regulator.
When the bike is moving the regulator now gets a good supply of cooling air flowing over it. I did one further thing to assist keeping the regulators temperature down...I bolted the old regulator body up against the new one. So now it looks like a double decker regulator. The extra metal content and fins on the older regulator certainly aid in shunting heat away. If the bike is just left idling for, say, 30 minutes its possible to place your hand on the regulator and leave it there indefinitely..... and not lose any skin..!
After a run on the road the regulator is now barely warm to the touch.
Quote from: connor on March 18, 2009, 03:32:51 AM
Hello All,
Had a regulator/rectifier fail on me a few months back, it was overcharging. I was not happy with its original location beneath the battery where things get pretty hot.
I made myself a rear carrier rack and have bolted the new regulator to the underside of the rack where it is barely visible. I extended the wiring from the original regulators location and managed to run the new wires so they are not visible either. The rack is made of steel and this seems to act as a good heat shunt for the regulator.
When the bike is moving the regulator now gets a good supply of cooling air flowing over it. I did one further thing to assist keeping the regulators temperature down...I bolted the old regulator body up against the new one. So now it looks like a double decker regulator. The extra metal content and fins on the older regulator certainly aid in shunting heat away. If the bike is just left idling for, say, 30 minutes its possible to place your hand on the regulator and leave it there indefinitely and not loose any skin.
After a run on the road the regulator is now barely warm to the touch.
Sounds great... (http://i43.tinypic.com/24v5zsm.jpg)
Quote from: HardDriveUSA on March 18, 2009, 01:36:20 AM
didn't remember exact numbers, it was a lil over 14. better than the 12v or so before. :lol: A new one from bikebandit.com.
Is it not there? shall fix that =)
You should be good then.. I assume a Genuine Honda Regulator, made after 2001..
Conner,
Do you have any pictures of the where and how you mounted yours?
Today I got the bike back together. More on that on another thread. I rode in the heat, and tested the regulator in the new location per Jim Tindall's relocation, as cited at:
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.com/forums/index.php?topic=3587.0
The comparison with the previous test, with the R/R in its stock position under the battery box is as follows:
Condition As Found Relocated
Before startup -- 29C 37C
After 3 min at 3000 rpm or less -- 57C 57C
Riding at 55 mph in 5th gear stabilizes at 66C 72C
Turned on 100 watts riding lights -- stabilizes at 65C 71C
When I slowed down to street traffic speed -- 73C 72C
Parked -- just stopped -- 76C 72C
After 3 minutes or so -- returned to bike - 57C 53C
Returned home -- ambient air ?? 39C
It is usually assumed that temperature rise is a linear phenomenon. If this be true, then the temperature rise to average highway running speeds is (66 - 29) = 37C in original location, but only (72 - 37) = 35C as relocated. Not much difference, and hardly worth the effort.
However, at slow speeds, relocation picks up 9 degrees. And the surge when you park drops from 47C to 35C. I don't know when the failures occur, but in one case, (Felicia's), it appeared to happen either in town after a long climb, or on startup after the bike had been parked.
The numbers above were taken with no saddlebags in place. I will try again tomorrow with saddlebags to see if there is a significant difference.
Today I made measurements with saddlebags in place. I was surprised at the difference, especially while traveling a 55 and 65 mph.
Condition As Found Relocated- No bags Relocated - with bags
Before startup -- 29C 37C 35C
After 3 min at 3000 rpm or less -- 57C 57C 57C
Riding at 55 mph in 5th gear stabilizes at 66C 72C 61C
Turned on 100 watts riding lights -- stabilizes at 65C 71C 61C
When I slowed down to street traffic speed -- 73C 72C 71C
Parked -- just stopped -- 76C 72C 71C
After 3 minutes or so -- returned to bike - 57C 53C N/A
Returned home -- ambient air ?? 39C 36C
There was a slight breeze today. The 61C cited above was with the wind from the left. When I turned around so the wind was from the right side, the temp dropped to 53C.
I was surprised that the bags improved the temperature rise this much. I ride with Leatherlyke bags, which stand off from the bike a couple of inches. The front of the bag must create an eddy, or otherwise somehow capture cooler air to flow over the R/R. With the same air temperature, the improvement (due to bags) at speed is about 8C.
There was no significant difference at low speed or idle.
My conclusions:
1) It is probably worth the trouble to relocate the R/R unit to the cooler location aft of the side panel.
2) At least with hard bags, you are better off to have the bags in place.
3) The R/R should be OK as long as you never slow down or stop :lol: :lol: :lol:
Good data, Lawrence (I would expect nothing less from the master). So, once again, lack of airflow rears its ugly head, at least at low speed, which brings us back to cooling fans. :???: I am going to try to get a sample of a waterproof fan rated for outdoor use from one of my distributor contacts. Alternatively, if anybody wants to try to run the experiment before I do, Mouser sells ADDA P/N AQ1212HB-A71GL-LF http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvuXzJ9NcThauZgWwIac4iLLNNXfZVgSbA%3d (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvuXzJ9NcThauZgWwIac4iLLNNXfZVgSbA%3d), which should provide ample airflow over the R/R. Of course, a thermostat of some sort would need to be used.
Would be nice if someone had a connection to put one of these bikes in a wind tunnel and get an air flow chart on a stock bike....
Quote from: Capt. Howard on July 09, 2009, 04:54:16 PM
Would be nice if someone had a connection to put one of these bikes in a wind tunnel and get an air flow chart on a stock bike....
Gee, Captain, do you know anyone who actually
owns a stock bike?
Half the fun is modifying it to your own tastes :grin: :grin: :grin:
As the above data show, the mods make a big difference.
Quote from: Sledge Hammer on July 09, 2009, 04:48:17 PM
Good data, Lawrence (I would expect nothing less from the master). So, once again, lack of airflow rears its ugly head, at least at low speed, which brings us back to cooling fans. :???: I am going to try to get a sample of a waterproof fan rated for outdoor use from one of my distributor contacts. Alternatively, if anybody wants to try to run the experiment before I do, Mouser sells ADDA P/N AQ1212HB-A71GL-LF http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvuXzJ9NcThauZgWwIac4iLLNNXfZVgSbA%3d (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvuXzJ9NcThauZgWwIac4iLLNNXfZVgSbA%3d), which should provide ample airflow over the R/R. Of course, a thermostat of some sort would need to be used.
Mike, I am still dubious about mounting a fan on top (underneath, really in the stock position under the battery) of the R/R. There is not a lot of clearance to the swing arm. My fear is that I wouldn't even get off the ranch -- the first cattle guard would crush it.
Lawrence,
Do I read this correctly, w/o the bags it runs cooler in it's original location while going down the road or with the lights on?
I would not mind trying the fan, would have to check clearances, I was looking for the thinnest fan. 25mm will equal an inch. If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.
Post up your photo of the probe you are using again.
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 09, 2009, 05:30:26 PM
Lawrence,
Do I read this correctly, w/o the bags it runs cooler in it's original location while going down the road or with the lights on?
I would not mind trying the fan, would have to check clearances, I was looking for the thinnest fan. 25mm will equal an inch. If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.
Post up your photo of the probe you are using again.
No, Terry, the data were taken with different ambient temperatures. The original data was on a 29C day, the last two were 37C and 35C respectively (at least as the tests began -- the temperature rose slightly each day).
I really should put together a spreadsheet showing the temperature rise above ambient for each of the tests -- those are the only numbers useful for comparisons. :smile: :smile:
New pictures are attached. The meter is carried in a tank bag, not shown.
It is a "K type" thermocouple meter. The paper clip holds the probe in place against the heat sink fin.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: lragan on July 09, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
Mike, I am still dubious about mounting a fan on top (underneath, really in the stock position under the battery) of the R/R. There is not a lot of clearance to the swing arm. My fear is that I wouldn't even get off the ranch -- the first cattle guard would crush it.
I was just idly curious to see if anybody made a fan rated for use under the conditions to which it would be subjected in this application. Then it dawned on me that a marine supply shop would be a good place to start because fans and blowers rated fur use onboard boats have to be sealed against water. They have all sorts of uses aboard boats beyond general ventilation, including keeping engine compartments and bilges clear of hazardous fume build-up.
I have no doubt that adding a fan is a much more complicated matter than it seems like at first glance. For starters...
1) One would definitely have to verify adequate clearances before installing it, including for the wire harness which would supply power to it.
2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.
3) Protect the battery against being shorted out under a locked-rotor condition. (We don't want any exploding batteries or wire insulation burning underneath our bottoms, now, do we?)
4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.
5) Device some sort of shroud to protect other wiring from getting caught in the blades and to make sure the airflow goes where we want it.
6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.
Wouldn't the road temperatures as well as road makeup "asphalt /reverse lay/concrete..ect" make a significant difference as your results showed due to wind direction?..When I mentioned wind tunnel I was referring to locating the coolest point due to wind (draft) from forward movement...thus giving you a better starting point for relocation with maximum benefit. Not gigging efforts towards a possible solution to problem...Just interested and commented in humor..I guess if I took the windshield off my bike it would be stock...LOL...Good Luck
Quote from: Capt. Howard on July 09, 2009, 06:59:24 PM
Wouldn't the road temperatures as well as road makeup "asphalt /reverse lay/concrete..ect" make a significant difference as your results showed due to wind direction?..When I mentioned wind tunnel I was referring to locating the coolest point due to wind (draft) from forward movement...thus giving you a better starting point for relocation with maximum benefit. Not gigging efforts towards a possible solution to problem...Just interested and commented in humor..I guess if I took the windshield off my bike it would be stock...LOL...Good Luck
You know where Lawrence put his aux lights :-P good wind location for cooling.
1) One would definitely have to verify adequate clearances before installing it, including for the wire harness which would supply power to it.
Yes, this does need further checking. Initially I thought no way, after working on mine and seeing the ratio of closure when I move the swigarm in position, I'm not sure.
2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.
I would let it run continuously.
3) Protect the battery against being shorted out under a locked-rotor condition. (We don't want any exploding batteries or wire insulation burning underneath our bottoms, now, do we?)
In-line fuse would take care of this.
4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.
None needed if fused.
5) Device some sort of shroud to protect other wiring from getting caught in the blades and to make sure the airflow goes where we want it.
No wires in the area.
6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.
I don't think this would be an issue, I use a AGM sealed battery, they can and in one of my bikes are mounted on their side, nothing to leak out. Even on a flooded battery I believe there is too much air circulated and not enclosed where this would be a problem.
Quote from: Capt. Howard on July 09, 2009, 06:59:24 PM
Wouldn't the road temperatures as well as road makeup "asphalt /reverse lay/concrete..ect" make a significant difference as your results showed due to wind direction?..When I mentioned wind tunnel I was referring to locating the coolest point due to wind (draft) from forward movement...thus giving you a better starting point for relocation with maximum benefit. Not gigging efforts towards a possible solution to problem...Just interested and commented in humor..I guess if I took the windshield off my bike it would be stock...LOL...Good Luck
You raise a valid point. To be precise, it would be better to have a second thermocouple in the airstream, like out front of the bike, so we could tell the temperature of the ambient air "in situ", as it were. My assumption that the ambient is more or less constant throughout the ride may not be true. It would require some effort, but it is possible to rig two thermocouples in a way that one serves as a reference for the other -- meaning that you can read out the differential directly.
Problem is, I took the original data with the same setup I have shown for the relocated data -- same regulator, same instrument, same bike, same bozo riding it. I am not willing to put the R/R back to its original location to redo the reference measurements with a differential measurement setup. Too much work for what I believe would be a marginal improvement in precision -- another way of saying I'm just too lazy -- :smile:
Quote from: lragan on July 09, 2009, 10:24:45 PM
another way of saying I'm just too lazy -- :smile:
and we don't have Honda footing the bill and use of their shop.
This is a long thread and this question has probably already been addressed but I'll ask anyway, how does sitting in the direct sunlight on extremely hot days affect the cooling process? I'm assuming (but not knowing) that the R/R gets hotter in the direct sunlight, opposed to underneath out of the direct sun. I'm asking this because a lot of my riding is around town where traffic is slow and the bike sits in the sun when it's not running and doesn't move fast enough from light to light or place to place to create much air flow. It's probably a dumb question :-? but answer it anyway :D.. Oh yeah, please :)..
There are no dumb questions, Charles -- only dumb answers, of which this may be one.
Since it is black, the R/R will absorb energy from the sun, for sure. What fraction of the total energy load it suffers is an open question.
My guess is that the only time it will make much difference is when the sun is low in the sky. Early mornings are probably not an issue, but late afternoon may be. Four to five p.m. is probably the worst case.
I have reviewed my route (from the last two experiments) and the sun direction. In particular, I saw no significant difference coming or going to Kyle with the bags removed, and the sun was incident on the R/R for a long stretch going over, but not coming back. The wind was calm in both directions. It was not that late in the day, however (in the early afternoon).
Perhaps I will run a static experiment this afternoon late, time permitting. :smile:
My guess is that you are still better off with the relocated position. By far the largest temperature rise in the stock location occurs when the bike is still -- substantially more than accrues to the relocated spot -- the temperature shot up with the bike not running when the R/R is located adjacent the engine under the seat. This phenomenon was totally absent with the relocated case.
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 09, 2009, 05:30:26 PM
If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.
Here ya go, Terry -- only $25...
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772
:grin: :grin: :grin:
I apologize, but I still am not understanding your data Lawrence. I'm looking at your numbers and am not getting it. I'm seeing what Terry is/was seeing. :? I even pulled up a celsius to fahrenheit cheat sheet off of google. :lol: It looks like the numbers are close or even hotter in the new relocation. Go ahead, call me stupid. :-D
Quote from: lragan on July 10, 2009, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 09, 2009, 05:30:26 PM
If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.
Here ya go, Terry -- only $25...
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772
:grin: :grin: :grin:
Harbor Freight...Got to Love them...The Wal-Mart of mens Tools and Stuff..
Lawrence...I'm eventualy going to relocate my r/r like you did. Just want your imput on putting a plate behind it sorta like Terry did..No your not being Lazy...Your doing a Good Dead for all of us who Appreciate your Talent..
1) One would definitely have to verify adequate clearances before installing it, including for the wire harness which would supply power to it.
Yes, this does need further checking. Initially I thought no way, after working on mine and seeing the ratio of closure when I move the swigarm in position, I'm not sure.
2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.
I would let it run continuously.
Depending on the fan, that's anywhere from 13 to 30 watts of extra power being drawn off the system. You may be draining down your battery doing that, depending on what other loading you have.
3) Protect the battery against being shorted out under a locked-rotor condition. (We don't want any exploding batteries or wire insulation burning underneath our bottoms, now, do we?)
In-line fuse would take care of this.
Yep.
4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.
None needed if fused.
Not necessarily. In the event of alternator failure, it would be nice to shut off the fan without having to hunt for the fuse. (And, yes, I think the legal requirement for an always-on headlight is assinine for that very reason.) When that has happened to me with four-wheelers, being able to shed all the electrical load has made the difference between being stranded in a dangerous location vs being able to limp the vehicle to a safe place to have it towed or serviced.
5) Device some sort of shroud to protect other wiring from getting caught in the blades and to make sure the airflow goes where we want it.
No wires in the area.
6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.
I don't think this would be an issue, I use a AGM sealed battery, they can and in one of my bikes are mounted on their side, nothing to leak out. Even on a flooded battery I believe there is too much air circulated and not enclosed where this would be a problem.
I am thinking worst-case scenarios, not typical.
Quote from: lragan on July 10, 2009, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 09, 2009, 05:30:26 PM
If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.
Here ya go, Terry -- only $25...
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=37772
:grin: :grin: :grin:
Thanks, I printed this one out along with another I found that also has a tach.
2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.
I would let it run continuously.
Depending on the fan, that's anywhere from 13 to 30 watts of extra power being drawn off the system. You may be draining down your battery doing that, depending on what other loading you have.
Looking at the charts, the fan you found uses, depending on size 1-4.5 watts, very little in the big picture considering your headlight at 55-65 watts and your tail light at ??I forgot. I run a pair of lights that pull 110 watts total and they are seldom ever cut off be it idling or traveling which again someone running 100 watts of lights for most of the life of the bike has not had a failure yet. More advantageous to cut your headlight than worry with a fan. When my battery was going dead on a trip back home it was nice to cut the extra lights.
4) Providing for a manual cut-out switch in the event that fan operation would be detrimental.
None needed if fused.
Not necessarily. In the event of alternator failure, it would be nice to shut off the fan without having to hunt for the fuse. (And, yes, I think the legal requirement for an always-on headlight is assinine for that very reason.) When that has happened to me with four-wheelers, being able to shed all the electrical load has made the difference between being stranded in a dangerous location vs being able to limp the vehicle to a safe place to have it towed or serviced.
I think I responded to this above.
6) Make sure it or its control circuitry cannot conceivably ignite any fuel vapors or hydrogen gas from the battery.
I don't think this would be an issue, I use a AGM sealed battery, they can and in one of my bikes are mounted on their side, nothing to leak out. Even on a flooded battery I believe there is too much air circulated and not enclosed where this would be a problem.
I am thinking worst-case scenarios, not typical.
The fans you found are brushless, I think magnetic fields are what make them turn, no sparks.
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 10, 2009, 05:26:58 PM
Thanks, I printed this one out along with another I found that also has a tach.
Terry, I double bought in this area. I think I ordered the one with the tach you refer to, then found the one I actually used at the local store. I don't remember returning the "automotive" one. Before you order, let me look. I may have already given it away...
My apologies for the disorganized way I have presented my data -- it has obviously caused considerable confusion. I hope this post will clear it up.
The assumption behind all comparisons is that the relationship between heat dumped to the R/R and the temperature of the R/R is linear. What this means is that if the heat from the engine under a certain condition causes the temperature to rise, say 10 degrees, and the heat from the electrical energy dissipated by operating the unit causes the temperature to rise, say 7 degrees, and the heat from sun load causes the temperature to rise, say 6 degrees then the temperature of the unit will be 17 degrees above the ambient temperature of the air when it is on and the engine is running, but the sun is not striking it, and 23 degrees above ambient when in the sun, all other conditions being the same. This assumption is well established by experiment and commonly accepted by engineers everywhere. It makes calculation and comparison relatively simple. By invoking this assumption, we can calculate what the unit temperature will be on any given day, knowing the operating conditions and the temperature of the air (ambient).
The attached sheet shows the original data, including the reference ambient temperatures, and the columns are repeated below with the difference between measured and ambient temperature displayed. This second set of numbers are the only ones valid for comparison.
To answer Charles' question -- today I measured the temperature of the R/R with and without sun load Without starting or running the bike at any time during these measurements. Just sitting in the shade, the unit was at air ambient, 35C. Time was 6 p.m. Parked headed north for 10 minutes, still read 35C. Turned the bike around so the R/R was directly exposed to the sun and measured 41C. So the 6C rise in temperature could be added to the relocated numbers parked or at low speed if the unit is directly exposed to the sun's rays at 90 degree incidence. At noon the solar radiation density is higher, but the area in the sun is much lower due to the shape and mounting of the unit. I think I captured either the maximum rise or close to it due to solar load.
Where does all this leave us? It depends on the assumption of failure mechanism. If failures are simply a matter of metal migration due to temperature, then higher temperatures over a longer period will reduce the Mean Time to Failure (MTTF) by approximately a factor of ten for every 10 degrees C the unit experiences -- the effects are cumulative. Under this assumption, the relocation should substantially extend the life, especially for riders like me who rarely sit in traffic.
I strongly suspect that the failure mechanism involves a phenomenon known as "thermal runaway". This accrues especially to CMOS circuits, and is due to leakage currents, which increase with temperature. So the scenario goes like this. A hot day, the leakage current goes up. The circuit design may be inadequate, and the leakage current causes the circuit current to increase, so the device dissipates more heat, and then gets hotter, and the leakage current goes up even more, which makes it hotter yet... well, you can see this will not end well. The unit will fail rather quickly. This mechanism depends on the design, variances in manufacturing the semiconductor, and the peak temperature the unit experiences while in operation. Without being able to prove it at all, I strongly suspect this is how they fail. If this is true, then the temperature surge that occurs when the bike is still or operating a very low speeds in the stock configuration is the biggest killer. If you relocate the unit and are sitting in traffic on a hot day with a direct sun on the unit, it is almost as big. Variation in leakage current from wafer to wafer and run to run in a CMOS process is huge, so if you are lucky enough to draw devices from an unusually "tight" wafer, your unit may never fail. If, on the other hand...
Bottom line, I can't say unequivocally that relocation will solve the failure problem. I believe it is a step in the right direction, but I do not believe it is "the solution".
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We should be grateful this isn't the Aprilia Owners of Texas forum. I spoke with a guy at work who has an Aprilia Futura that not only had its regulator go out, but one phase of the alternator, and the price tag just for Aprilia parts is knocking on $350, and then there is no guarantee they will not fail the same way. Believe it or not, the fix is to use Honda parts instead (yes, I 'm struggling to keep a straight face as I type this). His previous bike was a VFR, whcih he said cooked its regulator because the tiny little cubbyhole where it was mounted received virtually no airflow, but at least it didn't call for a bank loan to finance the repairs.
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 09, 2009, 05:30:26 PM
If I had Lawrence's fancy do dad I could see how my added heat sink worked. I have one with a long probe, looks like it would get bent in the process.
Terry, I still have the meter that includes the tach. New in the box -- I will never use it, as I have opted for the other meter.
If you will pm me your address, I will ship it to ya.
Will this do what I need it to do with the temps? PM is on the way.
Yes, it should take temperature readings without difficulty. You will need to keep the display from getting too hot, or it will fade, but if you carry it in a tank bag or otherwise shield it from the sun, it will work.
I am interested in the data you take. Be sure to get the air temperature before you start, and the "cold" temperature of the R/R before you start the bike...
I did a simple calibration on mine, just to check it. In ice water, it should read 0C. In boiling water, 100C. Mine was right on at both points. I suspect yours will be too.
In view of the temperature rise from exposure to direct sunlight, is painting the radiator fins black still a god idea? Lawrence, so you think the fins would absorb more heat from solar radiation because of the black color? I can see it radiating better when black, but it looks to me that it will have a greater temp raise from solar exposure if it were black.
As long as the device runs hotter than ambient, it will dissipate heat to the air, but if it is setting in the sun, it may have a starting point for dissipation that is closer to the thermal run away temperature.
I was going to paint mine black on the V-65, but the more I think bout it, I think I'll leave it alone.
Quote from: lragan on July 11, 2009, 05:18:10 PM
Yes, it should take temperature readings without difficulty. You will need to keep the display from getting too hot, or it will fade, but if you carry it in a tank bag or otherwise shield it from the sun, it will work.
I am interested in the data you take. Be sure to get the air temperature before you start, and the "cold" temperature of the R/R before you start the bike...
I did a simple calibration on mine, just to check it. In ice water, it should read 0C. In boiling water, 100C. Mine was right on at both points. I suspect yours will be too.
All these strings attached and responsibility, Lawrence acts like we're married :P BTW Charles did you understand the explanation from the English Major? :-? :lol:
They are coming close to black from the factory now.
2) Devise a thermostat with suitable hysteresis to keep the thing from continually cycling on and off.
I would let it run continuously.
Depending on the fan, that's anywhere from 13 to 30 watts of extra power being drawn off the system. You may be draining down your battery doing that, depending on what other loading you have.
Looking at the charts, the fan you found uses, depending on size 1-4.5 watts, very little in the big picture considering your headlight at 55-65 watts and your tail light at ??I forgot. I run a pair of lights that pull 110 watts total and they are seldom ever cut off be it idling or traveling which again someone running 100 watts of lights for most of the life of the bike has not had a failure yet. More advantageous to cut your headlight than worry with a fan. When my battery was going dead on a trip back home it was nice to cut the extra lights.
Yep, you're right: if 4 W makes a difference, you're already in trouble! I couldn't get to the ADDA web site from my office n(y)etwork to see the power demand on the AQ1212HB-A71GL-LF. I went by data from other 120X120 mm fans which I've been evaluating recently which are power hogs but which also have twice the airflow of the ADDA. But my point is not you will have to adopt load management measures but that it something that might have to be considered. Fans in this size are all over the map in terms of airflow and power draw. Speaking of airflow, this is where we could use the guidance of a mechanical engineer with a background in heat transfer, because we do not even know what airflow is required for adequate cooling.
With a fan you would not have to worry about air flow being stopped or traveling. I would also guess even the slow fans, 2500 RPM would be sufficient, more could always be better.
I worked on 4 bikes today but this fan is something I want to pursue further when I have time to check clearance.
Quote from: BudMan on July 11, 2009, 10:22:31 PM
In view of the temperature rise from exposure to direct sunlight, is painting the radiator fins black still a god idea? Lawrence, so you think the fins would absorb more heat from solar radiation because of the black color? I can see it radiating better when black, but it looks to me that it will have a greater temp raise from solar exposure if it were black.
As long as the device runs hotter than ambient, it will dissipate heat to the air, but if it is setting in the sun, it may have a starting point for dissipation that is closer to the thermal run away temperature.
I was going to paint mine black on the V-65, but the more I think bout it, I think I'll leave it alone.
Buddy, I don't think the difference between the dull gray aluminum anodizing and a flat black paint will prove significant -- just my opinion, based on solar absorption tests I ran decades ago on various colors,
Secondly, the thermal runaway hypothesis is just that -- merely conjecture. May not be true at all.
My advice is the same I gave to Jim Tindall -- if you want it black, paint it black.
Quote from: TLRam1 on July 11, 2009, 11:50:08 PM
All these strings attached and responsibility, Lawrence acts like we're married :P
Nothing is ever really "free". :cool: :lol: :lol:
QuoteBTW Charles did you understand the explanation from the English Major?
Yes Terry! I'm not actually as dumb as I sound :D
Quote from: Charles S Otwell on July 12, 2009, 06:41:06 PM
QuoteBTW Charles did you understand the explanation from the English Major?
Yes Terry! I'm not actually as dumb as I sound :D
Yeah, but you ARE shorter than you look on TV! ha ha ha ha!!!
Curtis
QuoteYeah, but you ARE shorter than you look on TV! ha ha ha ha!!!
Here we go again! By the way didn't Dustin Hoffman play in a movie named after you?? Indian movie of some sort :D :D..
Here is a write-up of someone mounting a PC fan on a VFR R/R. Thought I would share this info. Don't know if it would work or not or even crush the fan, just throwing a bone. Maybe a relocation with the fan.
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/speedway/6198/reg-rect.html
Yes I remember this write-up or one similar for the VFR, I planned to check my clearance out last week except I did not finish the bikes I was working on. Thanks for posting that again Lance, pretty sure there would be no room for another exchanger just the fan if that much.
Ok, I love you guys..quick forum search, and I found my yesterday's battery boil over problems...bad regulator...Charging at just under 17volts....
thanks you for existing....
1998 Magna..35K miles currently.